Christ figures in Middle-Earth

Greenwood said:

However, I have to say that I find the apparent underlying assumptions of your agruments, particularly your final statement breath-takingly arrogant. You seem to be claiming all morality, all nobility, all spirituality, all ideas of self-sacrifice, for Christianity alone!

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Greenwood, I think that she's claiming all morality, nobility, spirituality and self sacrifice in Lord of the Rings is Christian, or at least has a Christian foundation, due to the beliefs of the author. Is that such a radical claim to make?
My apologies if my assumption is wrong...

You are mostly right, HS, though I am being even more specific than that. I really don't see what enjoyment a Hindu would get reading Lord of the Rings and saying, "Hey! Frodo does this and this and this and represents these Christlike characteristics!" It would be worthless for him. Why would he want to? Now, the Hindu may very well be interested in the ideas of nobility and honor in there, but what does he care if you can draw paralels between Frodo and a Christian god? If the paralels are intentional, and I have already stated the majority of them are not, then it might be interesting for him from a literary sense, just as it might be interesting for me to pick out where O Brother, Where Art Thou? paralels Homer. . .or was it Virgil? I am too far away from any book shelf to check today. However, we will all agree Tolkien did not intentionally make these things connect to each other.

And honestly, I think he seperated the Lord of the Rings from his religion because of his religion in some ways. I think he wanted to be careful not to set up some sort of bizarre "Church of Eru."

emulation -- effort or desire to equal or excel others.

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Yes, I am using the wrong word. There is a similar word that means desire to immitate based on admiration. Let's say a person wants to write a political novel about a good politician and has always admired JFK so they write their politician resembling JFK but put him in different situations and for the better part of his personality make him a new character, just standing for similar things as JFK. Is this an allegory?

I also argue that you can do this unintentionally. When I was very young and just starting my writing career my first hero ended up an awful lot like the very handsome guy three grades up without me even trying. More subtly, I have been accused of ripping off Aragorn in a few of my works.

He wrote them, so naturally they are intentional. What do you mean by they are intentional but not allegorical?

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I think the character intentionally resemble Christ. For a character to be allegorical, they would have to BE Christ within the context of the tale. Neither of those characters are. JC, on the other hand, is supposed to take the place of Christ in the context of GoW by offering himself up as a sacrifice for another character and being persecuted by a system that is corrupt and doesn't understand him.

Frodo resembles Christ in being figure sent on a huge mission that will probably kill him to save the world. He isn't Christ because in the end he fails and because he simply isn't Christ.

JC receives a sort of deification or at least spiritualization. Frodo never does. At the most he becomes a better Hobbit, but he is never super-hobbit.

More importantly, are you contending that sacrifice (and I am assuming you mean self-sacrifice) is exclusively Christian?

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I am saying it is Christian. I wouldn't say exclusively. It's like 'Love thy neighbor' is Christian, but it is also found in other religions. However, a Christ like sacrifice is by default Christian.

This is clearly a reason why he would not include Christianity in his tale. It does not preclude him from using an Arthur-like character in the sense of a rightful king striving to claim his kingdom.

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But would you say that Aragorn is intentionally Arthurian?

I fear we are veering dangerously close to religious discussion here which is now banned from this forum and properly belongs on the ProjectEvil.com forum.

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Unless the administrators have changed the rules since the last ban, religion and politics are still allowed in the context of Tolkien (Did you know there are actually Tolkien political discussions?). It would be ridiculous to do otherwise, I think. There are just too many religious discussions that come out of Tolkien's work.

I agree the "intent" question is pretty much decided. However, I still think you can have an interesting literary discussion of the paralels.

Perhaps this will help the discussion:

Thus Gandalf faced and suffered death; and came back or was sent back, as he says, with enhanced power. But though one may be in this reminded of the Gospels, it is not really the same thing at all. The Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees

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Letter 181 of J.R.R. Tolkien

Hammersmith said:

Greenwood, I think that she's claiming all morality, nobility, spirituality and self sacrifice in Lord of the Rings is Christian, or at least has a Christian foundation, due to the beliefs of the author. Is that such a radical claim to make?

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YES! Given Tolkien's statements about his intent when writing LOTR, especially given his many other statements of other countries/cultures influences on his work. I point especially to Finnish and the Finnish saga Kalevala which in several letters he calls the "germ" of The Silmarillion. Tolkien also refers to the Icelandic sagas as influences. Given Tolkien's comments, one could make a perhaps stronger claim that "all morality, nobility, spirituality and self sacrifice in Lord of the Rings is Finnish, or at least has a Finnish foundation". I would find such a claim about as silly as it all being Christian.

I could also point to the far greater similarity of Manwe,the various Ainu and Maia, Valinor, etc. to Greek legends of Zeus and Mt. Olympus, or Nordic legends of Thor and Valhalla, than to anything in Christianity. Tolkien was a classical scholar and was certainly well acquainted with all these legends. Do you think it reasonable to contend none of these influenced him? Would you find a claim that "all morality, nobility, spirituality and self sacrifice in Lord of the Rings is Greek (or Nordic), or at least has a Greek (or Nordic) foundation" reasonable. The Greek legends predate Christianity, therefore they even have the strength of priority on their side.

[Added in edit: HLGStrider's response was posted while I was off composing my response to Hammersmith. I will have to take some time to read her post before I can respond.]

Well, actually, I'd leave the ALL out of it, but I would say the morality is more influenced by Christianity than Finnish myths while the story and characters are more influenced by Finnish myths than Christianity.


If you think that the Valar have any bearing on this argument, you are missing my point. I am saying that characters like Frodo are Christ like, not that the mythological setting is Christian. I say this is due to Tolkien's own faith, his own idea of right and wrong. For instance, I would point out that revenge killing is less acceptible in Middle Earth than in most of the Norse legends I have read.

Tolkien drew off many sources. I already pointed out Arthur. I would say, however, that some of them he was less interested in exposing or willing to admit. Arthur is apparently one of these. I think his religion was another, otherwise he would not conclude that it was a "Christian and Catholic work" which I believe he did somewhere.

I do not think that tolkein delibertly tried to make christ figures. Thogh as some caracters have christ like qualities, i think it is safe to asume that a devout christian, may, when writing caracters he admired , slip in some christ persoallity traits, as simply he thought these traits were noble,wise and heroic, and so, when writing about some noble,wise or heroic caracters used thoses traits.

Ps This is just a comment i thought when arthur and aragorn came to mind, Merlin useally dressed in blue, and a blue wizzard who never returned to his home some 6ages ago. Tolkein linking in to our myths again?

HLGStrider said:

Well, actually, I'd leave the ALL out of it, but I would say the morality is more influenced by Christianity than Finnish myths while the story and characters are more influenced by Finnish myths than Christianity.

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Well, taking the ALL out of the earlier statement does remove a large chunk of my objection. As I have said many times, I do not deny that Tolkien's religious faith (which was Christian, and specifically Catholic) influenced his writings. What I dispute is that he meant for the LOTR to be specifically Christian, or that his Christianity was the only influence on his work.

HLGStrider said:

I am saying that characters like Frodo are Christ like, not that the mythological setting is Christian. I say this is due to Tolkien's own faith, his own idea of right and wrong.

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You said:

HLGStrider said:

Frodo resembles Christ in being figure sent on a huge mission that will probably kill him to save the world.

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But, I would still point out that stories of heroic missions/quests, sometimes at great self-sacrifice are not uniquely Christian and Tolkien as a classical scholar was certainly well acquainted with many of them.

HLGStrider said:

Tolkien drew off many sources. I already pointed out Arthur. I would say, however, that some of them he was less interested in exposing or willing to admit. Arthur is apparently one of these.

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You seem to be accusing Tolkien of being less than honest in his statements about his intent in writing LOTR.

HLGStrider said:

I think his religion was another, otherwise he would not conclude that it was a "Christian and Catholic work" which I believe he did somewhere.

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Yes, I am aware of letter 142 in his collected letters (written to a Jesuit priest friend), but I am also aware of the many statements Tolkien made privately and publicly that do not fully support that letter. And, as I have said, repeatedly, I do not deny the influence of Tolkien's faith on his writings, which in my view is all he is really saying in letter 142.

Greenwood said:

Well, taking the ALL out of the earlier statement does remove a large chunk of my objection. As I have said many times, I do not deny that Tolkien's religious faith (which was Christian, and specifically Catholic) influenced his writings. What I dispute is that he meant for the LOTR to be specifically Christian, or that his Christianity was the only influence on his work.

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I didn't say that. Or did I?
Oh, pants, I think I may have. I think that I was mainly suggesting that much of it or some of it had a Christian foundation, rather than a Christian message. That could be similar to your saying that he had a Christian influence. As to the last, yes, I too would dispute that he meant for LOTR to be specifically Christian, or that his Chirstianity was the only influence on his work.

But, I would still point out that stories of heroic missions/quests, sometimes at great self-sacrifice are not uniquely Christian and Tolkien as a classical scholar was certainly well acquainted with many of them.

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I would say, however, that the Christian story is the one he would have been best aquainted with and would admire the most. There are many, many such quests, but there are many, many other sorts of stories in mythology. He could have just as easily written a tragic love tale. I would say his Christianity drew him to the tale, helped shape it, and made it what it was.

You seem to be accusing Tolkien of being less than honest in his statements about his intent in writing LOTR.

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Well, I would say it wasn't intentional in the writing, but if we are going to go with how it ended up, I'm going to go with the statement that it did end up with enough influence that it is worthy of discussion.

Occasionally I like to wonder if he did somethings on purpose. I mean, why the heck did Sam pull out that, "Don't go where I can't follow" line? Mostly, I think it was just his morals working on the work.

Hammersmith said:

I think that I was mainly suggesting that much of it or some of it had a Christian foundation, rather than a Christian message. That could be similar to your saying that he had a Christian influence. As to the last, yes, I too would dispute that he meant for LOTR to be specifically Christian, or that his Chirstianity was the only influence on his work.

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I think we are pretty much in agreement.

Greenwood said:

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

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*Sighs in relief*
You construct good arguments, Greenwood. Compelling and intelligent. You too, Elgee. I enjoyed this debate immensely. Now let's find some other aspect of the question to unravel!

Agreement is always a pleasant place to be in (thought not always as interesting. . ..)
If we do find another "route to explore" I'd suggest taking it to a fresh thread. Keeps things neater that way.

Hammersmith,

Thank you for the kind words.

I do not consider Gandalf a Christian figure for several reasons. He did not share his knowledge and beliefs freely to anyone. He keeps others at a distance and leads them in a very need to know basis. He lived much of his days in solitude and not among others. He possessed no family or close relationship with anyone.

I do not consider Gandalf a Christian figure for several reasons

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I think that your statement is in tune with what Tolkien said in letter 181 ("the Incarnation of God is an infinitely greater thing than anything I would dare to write. Here I am only concerned with Death as part of the nature, physical and spiritual, of Man, and with Hope without guarantees"); though, at least to me as a reader, he is the saviour figure in Tolkien's universe.

He did not share his knowledge and beliefs freely to anyone

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Well, perhaps his mission forbade him to do so. ("their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power" - UT, "The istari")

He lived much of his days in solitude and not among others

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Hm, I am not so sure; Imo, he interacted alot with others and I think he stayed true to the words of Cirdan when he received the ring - "to rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill".

An interesting thread...

One thing I have been missing throughout the debate was: none seems to have bothered to ask: What exactly is a "Christ-figure" or a "Christ-like-figure"?

Greenwood was the only one who came close to asking it...

Christos means anointed - or the anointed one - and I'm not sure that this applies for any character in Tolkien's legendarium.

And except for the fact that one of the world's largest religions has been founded under this synonym - which also doesn't apply for Tolkien's legendarium - there's not much which can be considered unique to Christos or the person to which this term is usually applied.

Thus - IMO - usage of the term "Christ-figure" without further explanation, begs a question for clarification or else part of the discussion may be based on - maybe unwarranted - assumptions...

I think you're all missing who really is Tolkien's Christ figure. In the Bible, God created all things, including all of his children. In the Bible, Satan rebels against God and performs many evil deeds. There is only one character who fits: Eru Illuvatar. He created Middle- Earth and his children, the Valar, Maiar, elves etc. Morgoth is one of the Valar, and he rebels against Eru. Therefore Tolkien's Christ figure is Eru Illuvatar.

In terms of who is most like to Jesus, the answer is Gandalf. Just like Jesus, he was sent to Middle-Earth to help mankind and 'save' them.

Beren said:

... my question is, what do you think Tolkien meant by including more than one Christ figure in his books?

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I never thought he did; just Gandalf, and even that falls far short of a one-to-one comparison between he and Jesus. If I remember rightly, I believe that Tolkien was for some reason or reasons dissatisfied with his whole treatment of Gandalf's "resurrection," and wished he'd never written it in. But the details escape me.

Gothmog, are you ready to ride to the rescue on this one?

Barley

Tolkien did not write the LotR as a 'Christian Allegory' but as a 'Pre-Christian Myth'. The Christ of the Bible (if he were ever to appear in ME) was something for the distant future.

The story is compatible with Christian beliefs of good and evil and many points of aplicability can be seen. However, Tolkien believed that the overt inclusion of the Christian Religion in Mythology was to ruin the Myth.

So there are No 'Christ-Figures' in the LotR though there are many that show 'christ-like' virtues, some more than others. Just as in the 'real world' many people can be found that have these virtues in greater or lesser extent.

It is not a case of Tolkien 'Writing Christ-figures in to the books' but of readers 'Reading them there'. Or as Tolkien would have it. It is not Allegory but Applicability.