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Could there be a "good" orc/goblin/troll etc?

Rivendell_librarian

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In WW2 films (made by the allies) we often come across the "good German" usually in the Wehrmacht/German Navy rather than SS/Gestapo.
In Tolkien's oeuvre we come across men/elves/dwarves (even hobbits?) who are seduced by the dark side but I can't think of any orcs/goblins etc who can be called "good" in the "good German" sense.
Is this because of the nature of faerie?
 
"The Enemy Below" in particular is a film where Hollywood got around to portraying "good Germans", who were not entirely down with the war and the whole Nazi schtick, but were just trying to do their jobs. In terms of M-E, it would be difficult to imagine an Orc being "good" while they were being driven by the evil will of Sauron. Once the Ring was destroyed and Sauron essentially rendered impotent, could some Orcs wander to the good side? They are living, thinking beings, so I suppose it's possible. Tolkien never pursued that line of thinking, as far as I know.
 
I would say that the movie 'Cross of Iron portrays Sgt Steiner (played by James Coburn) as a 'good' German along with Col Brandt (James Mason) and Captain Keisel (David Warner).

As far as the evil beings of Middle Earth, I never could see orcs or trolls as being 'good'. Who knows... if Shagrat and Gorbag hadn't killed each other and actually 'set up' together somewhere, their tavern may have been a rocking joint.
 
if Shagrat and Gorbag hadn't killed each other and actually 'set up' together somewhere, their tavern may have been a rocking joint.

I think they were considering slightly different plans, Halasían! :)

In RotK, the chapter "The Field of Cormallen" seems to suggest that without the will of Sauron they were doomed:

The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.​

Such was not the case for the Men fighting on Sauron's side; indeed, not belonging to Sauron's creatures, their reaction is markedly different:

But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West. And those that were deepest and longest in evil servitude, hating the West, and yet were men proud and bold, in their turn now gathered themselves for a last stand of desperate battle. But the most part fled eastward as they could; and some cast their weapons down and sued for mercy.​

Besides, the fate of falling into "nothingness" (if I may describe it like this) of Sauron's creatures also befell the Nazgûl:

the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out.​

Sadly, chances of finding "orcs-only clubs" after these events look slim, Halasían ! :(
 
Lol, I was being facietious. Being that the two killed each other, it would have likely burned down the first day anyway. :cool:
 
Somewhere in Humphrey Carpenter's "Letters" I seem to remember that JRRT had stated that even the Orcs were not irredeemably bad (after having almost said so, but he then shied back?). But my diffuse impression is that he thought it would take almost an intervention of Eru to repair the damage done to them by Morgoth and Sauron ... 🤔
 
Annoying aside: Orcs are Goblins.

Also, I think Gando is maybe thinking of these: from letter 153 . . .

"[Eru] gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they "fell", as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things "for himself, to be their Lord", these would then "be", even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other "rational" creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making — necessary to their actual existence — even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.)

But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodeling and corrupting them, not making them." JRRT

And Tolkien again, from Morgoth's Ring:

"But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty or treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."


  • [footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).
 
[footnote to the text] Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).
So the sign on the door would say 'No Elves Allowed' ;)
 
They're not the best-written books in the world, but I did read Brian Jacques' "Redwall" series, in my youth. The villains are all weasels, foxes, creatures like that. Occasionally you'd find a "good" one. But yeah, can't se that happening with orcs.

This does raise the interesting question, can orcs in any way be held responsible? I mean, human beings --- and Elves, etc. --- are free to choose good or evil (so many would have it). But orcs are made that way.
 
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They're not the best-written books in the world, but I did read Brian Jacques' "Redwall" series, in my youth. The villains are all weasels, foxes, creatures like that. Occasionally you'd find a "good" one. But yeah, can't se that happening with orcs.


Badgers too . . . I think? Are they the good guys, or mostly so?

🦡
 
Don't know about "good".

But British author Stan Nicholls wrote a trilogy (duh!) (erm ... he now lives in the West Midlands of England ...) - or actually two - about them.
The first trilogy was titled Bodyguard of Lightning, Legion of Thunder, and Warriors of the Tempest, and was published1999, 2000 und 2001 under an overall title (sound familiar?) Orcs: First Blood.
The second trilogy was overall-titled Orcs: Bad Blood, the individual titles were Weapons of Magical Destruction, 2008, Army of Shadows, 2009, and Inferno, 2011 .

Has anyone read any of them?
 
I'm pretty sure in the silmarillion, JRRT has clearly secured orcs are nothing but "machines only can do evil" due to being created by their creator-Morgoth, in other words, in JRRT's lore, the only good orc/goblin/troll is a dead orc/goblin/troll.
In general, JRRT's creatures's alignment mostly depend on their creator's, such as Aulë Mahal and dwarves (It's another matter about JRRT's comcept about free will to each creature's change of alignment).
Yes, there "might" be good orc/goblin/troll...only if Morgoth "truly" repents.
 
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The issue of Redemption is probably the Central Theme of both Tolkien’s Middle-earth, and the Catholic Christianity that forms the underlying Foundations for Middle-earth.

Elthil above quotes something I was going to point out, and others have mentioned Tolkien pondering upon the ultimate fate of Orcs/Goblins (yes, Orcs and Goblins are the same things), as to whether they could be redeemed.

The crux of this matter comes down to Tolkien never having resolved: WHAT exactly, is an “Orc?”

Because Tolkien in his many essays written for self-edification and illumination of his Sub-Created World (BTW, people rarely go into the meaning of that term as it applies to Catholicism and Christianity as a whole. It is a deep, and strange Rabbit-hole down which to descend, leading to places that cause one to say out-loud to themselves “SAY WHAAAAT?!”) on the subject of “Orcs,” Tolkien proposes many different possible Origins (Genesis), or Ontologies (Existences), for Orcs:

• They might be automata, only capable of acting under the direct “Will” of Morgoth, and possibly Sauron. In that case, they are what we would think of as no different than a wind-up clock, or an automobile: a Complex Machine, without any “Soul” or “Identity” of their own.

• They might be intelligent beasts capable of speech, like some others we have seen in Middle-earth, from Thrushes, Ravens, Great Eagles, Hounds, and Wolves. Still, in Catholic Theology, despite having some sort of “intellect” or “Capacity for Thought/Speech” even if in a very limited capacity, this does not necessarily give them a “Soul” that is necessary in Catholic/Christian Theology for a being to be “Good or Evil.”

• They might be Minor-Spirits, possibly even minor Maiar, who have become corrupted and debased, as have the Balrogs, save that their original stature and the depths of their corruption/perversion have so diminished them to being not much different from the Children-of-Ilúvatar in their size, and capacities, however corrupt and perverted they might be. In this case, the beings do have a “Soul,“ and thus SHOULD be able to be redeemed from the Evil they have accepted/committed/become.

Here it becomes necessary to point out a differentiation between Evil, and evil. Tolkien was very particular about certain words that were capitalized, the most prominent being Evil/evil, Good/good, Dark/dark, Shadow/shadow, and Light/light.. The non-capitalized versions of these things are the everyday, mundane occurrences of these things. They would be something such as lying about stealing from a cookie-jar, or picking on a younger sibling (evil – acts which by themselves are not enough to imperil the Soul of the person committing them); baking cookies, helping a neighbor to plant a garden, buying a round at the pub (good); the regular nighttime, or the darkness in a cave (dark); the shade under a parasol, or the sunlight being blocked by a wall one sits under during the heat of the day (shadow); or the illumination from a lamp or candle, or just the regular sunlight (light). These are ontologically distinct from Evil, Good, Dark, Shadow, and/or Light, which were things that could manifest as an actual physical property, aside from the affects upon Physical Reality that they have.

Evil perverts and distorts the Soul, which it turn will usually distort the physical appearance of a being or ”Thing.” It will take on a palpable unpleasantness that is capable of being perceived with the physical senses: Feeling “ugly” or “unpleasant” to the touch, being physically repulsive or physically “ugly,” having a noxious smell or taste (if one is to eat/drink it (as Merry/Pippin did with the Liquor the Orcs forced upon them to keep them going after being captured by Saruman’s Uruk-Hai, or having a “sound” that is itself unwholesome.

The same is true of the other “Negative” or “Positive” aspects. “Fire” is another such quality that Tolkien will at times capitalize, such as when referring to the effect of Gandalf upon others, being able to “kindle a Flame of Passion and Hope“ (BTW... On an aside... Gandalf was himself a “Spirit of Fire.” Had he been corrupted by Morgoth, he would likely have become a Balrog at least the equal to Gothmog. This was a part of the confrontation with the Balrog of Moria, where the destructive “Fire” of Hatred and Pain, would be defeated by the kindling Fire of Hope and Love).

• And lastly, Orcs/Goblins could be the corruption of Elves and/or Humans. Tolkien was confused about this, as he, like all Catholics of his time, did not understand the role of Genetics in the existence of speciation. And as such, Tolkien balked at Morgoth being able to accomplish something so heinously evil as to corrupt/pervert Elves to the extent that the children of a pair of Orcs/Corrupted-Elves would produce another Orc/Corrupted-Elf, rather than an Elf (Tolkien didn’t know that Genetic Manipulation would be the mechanism of that “corruption/perversion/debasement,” even if other forms of Corruption/Perversion/Debasement of the Soul/Spirit of the Elves/Men also occurred in the process).

But in ALL of the instances where the Orcs had/have some form of a “Soul” (even if it was just a fraction of a Soul, as was the case with one possible form of “Orc”), the possibility of Redemption Exists.

Now... Just because the “possibility exists,” does not mean that it will actually happen.

Now... It is very likely that had Tolkien managed to resolve the Metaphysical and Theological conflicts he kept encountering in trying to create a Foundation for Middle-earth, Arda, and Eä as a whole, he would have eventually revealed populations of Orcs who were on the path to redemption of some sort.

If you read the Secondary and Tertiary Sources surrounding Middle-earth, both by Tolkien and others, with an eye toward discovering Tolkien’s personal, moral, and ethical conflicts he had with the Sub-Creation of Middle-earth, one of the first things that leaps-out is that Tolkien was very disturbed by anything that required him to “Think like Morgoth“ (or, as Tolkien referred to him in his notes to himself: Satan. Tolkien also used the terms The Devil, and The Diabolus, but these latter terms were usually reserved for Sauron). He became very distraught and disturbed by his own thoughts when pondering their actions, motivations, and goals. I would not be surprised if his regular confessor would have been able to reveal a Great Deal More about Middle-earth than either JRRT, or his son, CJRT, had themselves recorded, due to Tolkien regularly destroying or “hiding” the notes/essays on these subjects that produced the most cognitive dis-ease, or else simply curtailing a branch of thought prior to its resolution due to being able to foresee that branch’s eventual destination.

And this is pretty typical with attempts to create Fictional Worlds that are based upon a particular Religious Ideology. Because pretty much 100% of the Earth’s Religious Faiths contain internal contradictions and paradoxes that are ultimately irresolvable due to the constraints of those Faiths.

This is most visible in Catholicism, as the world’s oldest Christian Theistic Faith, where we see innumerable “Heresies” that have arisen time-and-time-again with each new generation rediscovering what the Faith would call the “Sins-of-their-Fathers.”

The two “Heresy” that Tolkien collided with most often was Manicheaenism, the belief that “Good” and “Evil” are Physical, Tangible Things, and that “Evil” is more than the absence of “Good.” But there were several other Heresies he collided with in his attempts to resolve the existence of Orcs, and Morgoth, Sauron, and other beings.

But the issue of Manicheaenism is really the only thing that can resolve the issues in Middle-earth surrounding the existence of Evil (Called “Theodicy” in Christian Theology: Why does Evil Exist?).

But fundamentally, on the question of:

Could there be a “Good” Goblin/Orc?

The answer is an Emphatic “YES”, there can be a “Good” Goblin/Orc.

But the question of: “Did any Good Goblins/Orcs Exist during the currently recorded History of Arda?”

The answer is an emphatic “No!”

MB
 
Thank you Matthew for such a thorough discussion of this question. I'm minded to agree with you unless shown otherwise i.e. that a good orc is possible but is never encountered in Tolkien's fiction.
 
Thank you for your thoughts Matthew Bailey.

I didn't think it was so complicated. These orcs were no more, after the destruction of the Ring (nor trolls nor other creatures designed by Sauron or his mentor Morgoth). At least, that is the conclusion I personally have come to prefer (see above).

So the question (whether any of them could have become better than bad) is - well, pointless after Sauron's destruction. I'd be glad to be challenged with my simple view though...

With Sauron gone, which of those creatures could still survive and gnaw an occasional bone in the dark?
 

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