Did Celeborn participate in famous wartime clashes?

[Turin_Turambar]

As you all know, there are many different versions of the celeborn's life story. But according to the accepted life story, namely the version that he met and married with Galadriel in Doriath, Did celeborn fight in dagor bragollach, nirnaeth arnoediad and war of wrath? there were sindar elves in the dagor bragollach and nirnaeth arnoediad that i know of. Do you think celeborn joined that wars?

 

[Elthir]

I'm going to say no.

Especially for the Battle of Numberless Tears [see below].

I'll also note that, after some musing, I'm converting to the scenario posted some time ago from the mighty Tar-Elenion, in which Galadriel and Celeborn cross the Blue Mountains twice -- converting from my scenario in which Galadriel's "mountains" [The Fellowship of the Ring] might not mean the Blue Mountains.

I reserve the right to convert back at any moment however

in any case, I'm aware of the brief, posthumously published note in Unfinished Tales which states that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"

So, if Artanis Nerwende Galadriel departs Beleriand at some point before the Fall of Nagothrond, that leaves 75 years after First Age 420, in which. . .

420 — Melian speaks to Galadriel at some point — at least this is noted in year 420 [Grey Annals]

455 — Bragollach “Sudden Flame”

I couldn't find any mention of a force from Thingol until Year 458 [Grey Annals], when Beleg brought great strength to aid Haleth against Orcs

472 — Unnumbered Tears

It's said that no one out of Doriath came to this battle “save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained" [JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion, pre-Lord of the Rings version, The Lost Road]

— or “Mablung of Doriath with a small force of Grey-elves” [Grey Annals, wherein it was said that Mablung was unwilling to have no part in these great deeds]

— or no aid from Doriath is mentioned, at least [Narn version]

— compare the constructed Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien: “nor any out of Doriath save Mablung and Beleg, who were unwilling to have no part in these great deeds.”

495 — Sack of Nargothrond


Anno Domini 2023, on the 28th day of the 4th month, Elthir changes his mind about something related to Middle-earth.

It can happen!

 

[Elthir]

And I'm referring to the Elf, not the tree, of course.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I'm going to say no.

Especially for the Battle of Numberless Tears [see below].

I'll also note that, after some musing, I'm converting to the scenario posted some time ago from the mighty Tar-Elenion, in which Galadriel and Celeborn cross the Blue Mountains twice -- converting from my scenario in which Galadriel's "mountains" [The Fellowship of the Ring] might not mean the Blue Mountains.

I reserve the right to convert back at any moment however

in any case, I'm aware of the brief, posthumously published note in Unfinished Tales which states that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"

So, if Artanis Nerwende Galadriel departs Beleriand at some point before the Fall of Nagothrond, that leaves 75 years after First Age 420, in which. . .

420 — Melian speaks to Galadriel at some point — at least this is noted in year 420 [Grey Annals]

455 — Bragollach “Sudden Flame”

I couldn't find any mention of a force from Thingol until Year 458 [Grey Annals], when Beleg brought great strength to aid Haleth against Orcs

472 — Unnumbered Tears

It's said that no one out of Doriath came to this battle “save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained" [JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion, pre-Lord of the Rings version, The Lost Road]

— or “Mablung of Doriath with a small force of Grey-elves” [Grey Annals, wherein it was said that Mablung was unwilling to have no part in these great deeds]

— or no aid from Doriath is mentioned, at least [Narn version]

— compare the constructed Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien: “nor any out of Doriath save Mablung and Beleg, who were unwilling to have no part in these great deeds.”

495 — Sack of Nargothrond


Anno Domini 2023, on the 28th day of the 4th month, Elthir changes his mind about something related to Middle-earth.

It can happen!

Maybe you are right my dear friend but although celeborn is not shown in the rings of power, it is implied by both galadriel and the series that celeborn joined the war of the jewels. It is even shown that he left doriath to fight against morgoth. and galadriel left the beleriand after the fall of nargothrond and during this time celeborn was at war, which is why galadriel presume dead celeborn in the tv series.

 

[Elthir]

Rings of Power? Commencing eye roll. . .

Anyway, back to the books: Christopher Tolkien's note in Unfinished Tales reads: "It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated."

Nonetheless, we have this author-published statement: "He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted, for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat.”

So there's that.

In any case, I found Tar-Elenion's scenario attractive in its relative simplicity (compared to my "switching mountains" scenario), even if it has the pair crossing the Blue Mountains twice.

And if I adopt that, then I necessarily adopt that Celeborn wasn't at the War of Wrath.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I'll also note that, after some musing, I'm converting to the scenario posted some time ago from the mighty Tar-Elenion, in which Galadriel and Celeborn cross the Blue Mountains twice -- converting from my scenario in which Galadriel's "mountains" [The Fellowship of the Ring] might not mean the Blue Mountains.

Anno Domini 2023, on the 28th day of the 4th month, Elthir changes his mind about something related to Middle-earth.

It can happen!

Bows to Elthir the wise.
(Keep up the good fight after I am gone).

Christopher Tolkien's note in Unfinished Tales reads: "It is a natural assumption that Celeborn and Galadriel were present at the ruin of Doriath (it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"), and perhaps aided the escape of Elwing to the Havens of Sirion with the Silmaril -- but this is nowhere stated."

What I note about this statement is the "assumption".
Assumption by whom?
Presumably by readers of the published Silmarillion, who don't recall the LotR 'ere the fall of...' statement.
I also note the "it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"".
CT does not say "they" or "Celeborn and Galadriel". Just Celeborn.
I would like to see the full passage where that comes from, but I don't think it has been published. (Maybe Hostteter knows something).

There are some other variants where Galadriel leaves Beleriand very early. I think it is associated with her being a handmaid to Melian even before the Flight of the Noldor. Unfortunately my memory is foggy on which publication that is in. Do you recall?

 

[Elthir]

What I note about this statement is the "assumption". Assumption by whom? Presumably by readers of the published Silmarillion, who don't recall the LotR 'ere the fall of...' statement.

I can only guess that CJRT was thinking published Silmarillion here, despite that he himself had earlier raised the very quote from Fellowship, attributing it to (the probability of) Celeborn being a Nandorin Elf underlying Galadriel's statement.

Another strange thing to me [in section IV Unfinished Tales] is that CJRT seems to suggest that Galadriel's history could be transformed radically -- as the Silmarillion had not been published --
maybe so, yes, but he writes this without excepting Galadriel's part in the Rebellion, and her Ban, from RGEO (published by JRRT of course), although obviously he had not forgotten RGEO in general.

Hmm.

I also note the "it is said in one place that Celeborn "escaped the sack of Doriath"".
CT does not say "they" or "Celeborn and Galadriel". Just Celeborn. I would like to see the full passage where that comes from, but I don't think it has been published. (Maybe Hostteter knows something).

I was hoping for something about this brief statement in The Nature of Middle-Earth. Here it
seems (to me) a bit unlike the often-meticulous CJRT to simply note that "in one place" it is said that Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath.

I'd love to know the time (date, if known) and place

There are some other variants where Galadriel leaves Beleriand very early. I think it is associated with her being a handmaid to Melian even before the Flight of the Noldor. Unfortunately my memory is foggy on which publication that is in. Do you recall?

I think you might mean note 10 to The Tale Of Years Of The Second Age, The Peoples of Middle-Earth, where CJRT notes some description/revisions concerning Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age.

Indeedy, in the last statement given in note 10, for example, Galadriel, as daughter of Felagund, passed East over the mountains, forsaking Beleriand: "ere Nargothrond was made or Felagund was driven from Dorthonion". . .

Cool stuff!

 

[Tar-Elenion]

That was it, thanks.

re-reading it reminds me:
"In one of the earliest texts of the work Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

I would also like to see the textual variants for OtRoP.

 

[Ent]

Ents pulpwood hurts.