Did 🧝Elrond Maximize Vilya’s Powers?

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

My impression was always that, though Gandalf "actually died", as Tolkien stated in a letter, the fact that he returned to the mountain peak meant that he reanimated his body. In which case, if he were wearing the ring, he would still have it.

A new body would not need to appear at the scene of the old one's death; it could happen in Lorien, or anywhere in Middle Earth. Nor, speaking of Lorien, should a new body need the healing he found there.

Now I think about it, coming back in a new body gives us the odd picture of two "Gandalfs" lying on the peak!

 

[Barliman]

My impression was always that, though Gandalf "actually died", as Tolkien stated in a letter, the fact that he returned to the mountain peak meant that he reanimated his body. In which case, if he were wearing the ring, he would still have it.

I didn't get the impression that his body was reanimated. Rather his spirit returned in a body of the same form.
But yeah, if he died on Celebdil and his spirit wandered roads, then his body on Celebdil was reanimated, he likely would have retained the ring.

I wouldn't think his body would be in very good shape after battling the Balrog, but I guess if it could be reanimated it could also be repaired.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Yes, and that is why he asked Gwaihir to take him to Lothlorien:

'I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white'.

It's common in romance for the hero to be wounded, and then healed by a "doctor" figure.

 

[Barliman]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that line.

 

[Elthir]

I agree that Frodo's ability was enhanced, but I still think he didn't suddenly see Nenya, but suddenly understood what it was (for myself, I'm not sure I would have noticed Galadriel was even wearing a ring until she made her notable gesture under Earendil). When Frodo saw Nenya, it's likened to a star, "... as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood."

Tolkien has Sam see a star too (for myself, I'm not suggesting Sam had his head in his hands the whole time, but to my mind he was still upset and distracted by his vision -- still referring to the gaffer at the end of this scene), but even if Sam had realized the star was a ring, he couldn't perceive/know that it was one of the Three.

Galadriel says this to Frodo, and in the next breath turns to Sam. "And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?" she asked, turning again to Sam.

To me, the second part seems an abbreviated form of the same question to Frodo. And Sam doesn't say that he saw nothing, but that he saw the same "seeming image" that Frodo saw -- a star -- but he's not a ringbearer of course, and even after Galadriel asks her question, Sam's response still includes what I believe to be his main distraction through all this, his vision, including "them digging up the gaffer and turning him adrift."

And Frodo's question to Galadriel (the one he meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell) reads: "I am permitted to wear the One: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?"

To me this is not merely about visual sight at a given meeting with someone, for example (not that anyone said otherwise), but goes to the very perception that Sauron desired with his ring ruse: you put on the One, and you can "see" the bearers and their thoughts. But as noted (Galadriel says), Frodo has not tried this. Yet even so "your sight has grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise."

I would say sight/perception/recognition.

Elrond may have also worn Vilya openly on his finger only in select times, but on the other hand (cough, pun intended), generally speaking, Elrond wearing jewelry doesn't necessarily mean he's wearing Vilya.

 

[Ron Simpson]

"Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time." Then it's noted that Cirdan had given his ring to Mithrandir, and "Thus it was that in two domains the bliss and beauty of the Elves remained still undiminished while that Age endured: in Imladris and Lothlorien, the land hidden between Celebrant and Anduin…" Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

So to extrapolate, with the ring passing to Gandalf, the Grey Havens was qualitatively diminished: less mirth, less elven bliss & beauty, more tarnishing by time. Hmm, I can only imagine Cirdan's reception at the next city council meeting after his generosity to Gandalf.... a very awkward conversation indeed. "So let me get this straight Cirdan, you just GAVE it to him?"

 

[Elthir]

Some say that Ciryatano never used the Red Ring...

… based on Tolkien writing a text wherein Cirdan says that Narya was entrusted to him to only keep secret, and that the ring was idle on the West Shores. See the Istari, Unfinished Tales.

But I say he did use it, based on Tolkien publishing that the Eldar wielded the Three Rings in the Third Age, in Appendix B.

Who do you believe? JRRT or Tolkien?

 

[Ron Simpson]

and where they abode there mirth also dwelt

This may be getting a bit silly but: did the elven rings have to be intentionally 'wielded' to be beneficial, or did their mere presence confer the benefits?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

My vote is for "wielded". Which means worn. Otherwise, why rings? If they were meant to be artifacts constantly broadcasting power, they could have been of any form.

When Sauron forged and put on the One, the Elves were immediately aware of him, and "took off their rings". I take this to mean they ceased to function, until after his destruction, when they put them on again.

 

[Gilgaearel]

I think that Gandalf wore the ring when he fought with the Balrog.
On the bridge he says to the Balrog: You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
What is the Secret Fire that he is talking about other than Narya that was the ring of fire?
So he wore the ring continuously but Frodo for some unknown reason wasn't able neither to see the ring nor have any clue about what Gandalf had in his mind as he did with Galandriel.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

What is the Secret Fire that he is talking about other than Narya that was the ring of fire?

I see you came over here and posed a question about a subject that was discussed on yet another, different thread.

I'll see if I can find it.

Here's an old one:

http://thetolkien.forum/index.php?threads/secret-fire-sil-vs-fotr.8368/

I haven't read through it, to see if it addresses your question. A seach here for threads with "Secret Fire" in the title yields "No results". Useless.

But if you do a Google search for "Secret Fire The Tolkien Forum", several will magically appear.