Did Eru Create The Void Beyond Ea?

Tar-Elenion · Apr 13, 2023

"Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Namo Mandos as judge — and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates."
[...]
"When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void.10 That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda."

"* [footnote to the text] Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System)."
MR, MT

Fihsouu · Apr 14, 2023

Ent said:
Ent sees your question. Ent hasn't pondered this piece specifically, but does have thoughts. Wants to check just a couple things regarding creation order before he responds. Hasn't reviewed them in a short while.

Did you review them?

Also isn't Eru supposed to be an fictional input of the Judeo-Christian God ?

Ent · Apr 14, 2023

Fihsouu said:
Did you review them?
Also isn't Eru supposed to be an fictional input of the Judeo-Christian God ?

Haven't had time to review yet....hope to this weekend but uncertain. I've not forgotten it though.

Not sure I understand the term 'fictional input...'

But if the basic thrust is that Eru is supposed to be 'the same as' or 'an image of' or 'a reporesentation of' the Judeo-Christian God, no... Tolkien would deny that is what Eru is intended to be.

If he was, in fact, working on providing for his country a mythical/fantastic background as "other countries had but ours does not" (ours being England) then certainly it would not be based on the Judeo-Christian God.

None are based on anything remotely similar to Yahweh Elohim. (Or as the more Orthodox would write it, "YHWH" because the vowels are uncertain... or more accurately even for them, it should be "YHVH" because early Hebrew language did not have a "W".

Tolkien was (in his mind) striving for pure historical fantasy to give the country such a history to hang on to.

Clearly his writing demonstrates certain significant resemblances to Judeo/Christian thought.
It also demonstrates incredibly divergent and conflicting elements.
People often focus on the "similarities" without recognizing the vast differences... possibly because their understanding of the similarities is somewhat incomplete, and their depth of knowledge just doesn't allow them to recognize the significant differences.

Most Judeo-Christians can't even really explain and discuss the God they profess, due to lack of understanding of the Bible and misinterpretation of what it says due to weakness in grasping the meaning of the original languages (and English, and more). So it's understandable even less familiar folk wouldn't see it.

But this is a topic for another place and time.

Tar-Elenion · Apr 15, 2023

Fihsouu said:
Did you review them?

Also isn't Eru supposed to be an fictional input of the Judeo-Christian God ?

"The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity."
Letter 131

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."
Letter 142

Ent · Apr 15, 2023

@Tar-Elenion - thank you for reminding me of those letters. Tolkien remained interesting in his responses to his work throughout his life. On one hand he would say they had no relation, on the other he would, as above, state a direct relation - unconsciously at first, later conconsciously. My opinion is in the 'revision' he realized he'd gotten so deeply engulfed, to try to limit or eliminate it was impossible.

@Fihsouu - I copied out your question to my "Forum Responses" list so I don't lose sight of it. Hope to get to it soon.

Fihsouu · Apr 15, 2023

Ent said:
Haven't had time to review yet....hope to this weekend but uncertain. I've not forgotten it though.

Not sure I understand the term 'fictional input...'

But if the basic thrust is that Eru is supposed to be 'the same as' or 'an image of' or 'a reporesentation of' the Judeo-Christian God, no... Tolkien would deny that is what Eru is intended to be.

If he was, in fact, working on providing for his country a mythical/fantastic background as "other countries had but ours does not" (ours being England) then certainly it would not be based on the Judeo-Christian God.

None are based on anything remotely similar to Yahweh Elohim. (Or as the more Orthodox would write it, "YHWH" because the vowels are uncertain... or more accurately even for them, it should be "YHVH" because early Hebrew language did not have a "W".

Tolkien was (in his mind) striving for pure historical fantasy to give the country such a history to hang on to.

Clearly his writing demonstrates certain significant resemblances to Judeo/Christian thought.
It also demonstrates incredibly divergent and conflicting elements.
People often focus on the "similarities" without recognizing the vast differences... possibly because their understanding of the similarities is somewhat incomplete, and their depth of knowledge just doesn't allow them to recognize the significant differences.

Most Judeo-Christians can't even really explain and discuss the God they profess, due to lack of understanding of the Bible and misinterpretation of what it says due to weakness in grasping the meaning of the original languages (and English, and more). So it's understandable even less familiar folk wouldn't see it.

But this is a topic for another place and time.

Is void and nothingness the same? Or are they totally different concepts?

Ent · Apr 15, 2023

Fihsouu said:
Is void and nothingness the same?

This is a very difficult question to answer. The words "void" and "nothingness" are often interchanged... and indeed several of their definitions 'seem' to overlap.

In the 'real world' nothingness often relates to a state of 'existence'... i.e. 'completely without life'.- a state of 'being". But it has many other meanings as well... and "void" is among them.

"Void" tends more toward "containing nothing" - totally empty. But it too crosses over into issues of some of the definitions of "nothingness"..

The key here will be, what did Tolkien intend us to understand regarding the 'void'.

Was it 'emptiness' ? If so, then once Melkor and Sauron were banished thereto, it was no longer 'empty' and no longer 'void'. Indeed, Meklor went to The Void searching for SOMETHING that he felt was there. Had it been, it was not truly a "Void". but just the name of a place, differentiated from another place.

I'll keep my head to this issue too as I review on the other question... it will become clearer to me what Tolkien intended.

Fihsouu · Apr 15, 2023

Ent said:
This is a very difficult question to answer. The words "void" and "nothingness" are often interchanged... and indeed several of their definitions 'seem' to overlap.

In the 'real world' nothingness often relates to a state of 'existence'... i.e. 'completely without life'.- a state of 'being". But it has many other meanings as well... and "void" is among them.

"Void" tends more toward "containing nothing" - totally empty. But it too crosses over into issues of some of the definitions of "nothingness"..

The key here will be, what did Tolkien intend us to understand regarding the 'void'.

Was it 'emptiness' ? If so, then once Melkor and Sauron were banished thereto, it was no longer 'empty' and no longer 'void'. Indeed, Meklor went to The Void searching for SOMETHING that he felt was there. Had it been, it was not truly a "Void". but just the name of a place, differentiated from another place.

I'll keep my head to this issue too as I review on the other question... it will become clearer to me what Tolkien intended.

Since i am not well informed in Christianity, does God pre-date both concepts of void and nothingness in Christianity?

Ent · Apr 15, 2023

Fihsouu said:
ince i am not well informed in Christianity, does God pre-date both concepts of void and nothingness in Christianity?

Ent is reluctant to deal with this question publicly, as it starts to move beyond "Tolkien" related issues and concepts.
Publicly he'll just say "the God of Christianty, not being well understood, and 'scripturally' being stated to be 'beyond our comprehension' (which is entirely true) 'is a matter of great debate.'

So even His relation to concepts such as void and nothingness comes into debate.
That said, there are many things revealed for the one who observes.

In PM, Ent will be happy to share his thoughts following 41 years of research into such matters, if you're interested.

Fihsouu · Apr 15, 2023

Ent said:
In PM, Ent will be happy to share his thoughts following 41 years of research into such matters, if you're interested.

What do you mean by PM? And I am interested.

Ent · Apr 15, 2023

Fihsouu said:
What do you mean by PM? And I am interested.

PM is ‘private message’ - here on the Forum. How members can talk directly to specific other members without everyone else involved and seeing. It can also be set up so multiple members are involved in the private conversation.

Ent will start a PM between us for Q&A uses on this and any other things you may have questions about.

Tar-Elenion · Apr 15, 2023

"'What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.

'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'"
[...]
"'Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Ea that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Ea?'"
[...]
Finrod:"If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved.'"
Tolkien's commentary:
"...Eru Himself must at some time come to oppose Melkor. But Eru could not enter wholly into the world and its history, which is, however great, only a finite Drama. He must as Author always remain 'outside' the Drama, even though that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment. Finrod therefore thinks that He will, when He comes, have to be both 'outside' and inside; and so he glimpses the possibility of complexity or of distinctions in the nature of Eru, which nonetheless leaves Him The One'.(Author's Note 11, p. 345)
Since Finrod had already guessed that the redemptive function was originally specially assigned to Men, he probably proceeded to the expectation that 'the coming of Eru', if it took place, would be specially and primarily concerned with Men: that is to an imaginative guess or vision that Eru would come incarnated in human form. This, however, does not appear in the Athrabeth."
From Author's Note 11:
"This is actually already glimpsed in the Ainulindale, in which reference is made to the 'Flame Imperishable'. This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence...."
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Fihsouu · Apr 16, 2023

Tar-Elenion said:
"'What then was this hope, if you know?' Finrod asked.

'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'"
[...]
"'Truly,' said Andreth. 'So may Eru in that mode be present in Ea that proceeded from Him. But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different. How could He the greater do this? Would it not shatter Arda, or indeed all Ea?'"
[...]
Finrod:"If Eru wished to do this, I do not doubt that He would find a way, though I cannot foresee it. For, as it seems to me, even if He in Himself were to enter in, He must still remain also as He is: the Author without. And yet, Andreth, to speak with humility, I cannot conceive how else this healing could be achieved.'"
Tolkien's commentary:
"...Eru Himself must at some time come to oppose Melkor. But Eru could not enter wholly into the world and its history, which is, however great, only a finite Drama. He must as Author always remain 'outside' the Drama, even though that Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment. Finrod therefore thinks that He will, when He comes, have to be both 'outside' and inside; and so he glimpses the possibility of complexity or of distinctions in the nature of Eru, which nonetheless leaves Him The One'.(Author's Note 11, p. 345)
Since Finrod had already guessed that the redemptive function was originally specially assigned to Men, he probably proceeded to the expectation that 'the coming of Eru', if it took place, would be specially and primarily concerned with Men: that is to an imaginative guess or vision that Eru would come incarnated in human form. This, however, does not appear in the Athrabeth."
From Author's Note 11:
"This is actually already glimpsed in the Ainulindale, in which reference is made to the 'Flame Imperishable'. This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence...."
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

So based on this he created the void/nothingness?

Tar-Elenion · Apr 16, 2023

Fihsouu said:
So based on this he created the void/nothingness?

This and the immediately prior post are in response to your query:
"Also isn't Eru supposed to be an fictional input of the Judeo-Christian God ?"

I have provided the void quotes already (top of this page and the previous page).

Fihsouu · Apr 16, 2023

Tar-Elenion said:
This and the immediately prior post are in response to your query:
"Also isn't Eru supposed to be an fictional input of the Judeo-Christian God ?"

I have provided the void quotes already (top of this page and the previous page).

Can you summarise the answer if you don't mind, some of these quotes are hard to understand.

Tar-Elenion · Apr 16, 2023

Most simply, Eru is a 'fictional or 'mythological' version of the Christian triune God, with Eru Iluvatar (Father), Flame Imperishable (Holy Spirit), and the "Eru Himself must at some time come to oppose Melkor. But Eru could not enter wholly into the world and its history" (Son, Jesus).

d4rk3lf · Apr 16, 2023

He did created it, by not creating it.

Deimos · Apr 16, 2023

We need a "Metaphysics Badge"...

d4rk3lf should be the first recipient 😁
..followed by Tar-Elenion

Erestor Arcamen · Apr 16, 2023

Deimos said:
We need a "Metaphysics Badge"...

d4rk3lf should be the first recipient 😁
..followed by Tar-Elenion

Feel free to submit a suggestion, we could do one!

Suggestions

Proposed new badges/Trophies/other things for our forums

thetolkien.forum

Fihsouu · Apr 16, 2023

Tar-Elenion said:
Most simply, Eru is a 'fictional or 'mythological' version of the Christian triune God, with Eru Iluvatar (Father), Flame Imperishable (Holy Spirit), and the "Eru Himself must at some time come to oppose Melkor. But Eru could not enter wholly into the world and its history" (Son, Jesus).

Sorry, I was referring to the void quotes rather than the Eru=Judeo-Christian God. Can you summarise the void question and quotes. Did he create the void? A simple yes or no will do.

Did Eru Create The Void Beyond Ea?

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