Why did Eru allow the torture of the newborn 🧝elves?

[AaronAzrael]

What's your belief?
Here are some questions as brainstorm ideas:

1. How does Eru Ilúvatar’s granting of free will to the Elves and other beings play into his decision to allow Morgoth to torment them? Is it an inevitable consequence of free will, or a test of faith?
2. Did Eru Ilúvatar have knowledge of the suffering the Elves would endure, or did the unfolding events surprise him? How do prophecy and fate intertwine in the narrative of the Elves’ suffering?
3. How do the Elves interpret Morgoth's actions, and how does this influence their future decisions and allegiances (e.g., their relationships with other Valar, Maiar, and their resistance to darkness)?
4. Did the Elves question Eru Ilúvatar’s wisdom after enduring Morgoth's cruelty? What does their suffering reveal about their relationship with the Creator?
5. How can the existence of evil, especially as embodied by Morgoth’s actions, be reconciled with the notion of a benevolent, all-powerful Eru Ilúvatar? How does this challenge the understanding of divine justice in The Silmarillion?
6. What is the significance of Morgoth's power in the unfolding of the world’s history? Could the Elves have grown and flourished without him as an antagonist?
7. Did the torment of the Elves by Morgoth shape their evolution into a more powerful or enlightened race? How does their suffering shape their responses to the world around them?
8. What purpose, if any, does the suffering of the Elves serve in the grand plan of creation? Does it contribute to their eventual wisdom, strength, or understanding of the world, or just corrupt them beyond repair?
9. How does Eru Ilúvatar’s granting of free will to the Elves and other beings play into his decision to allow Morgoth to torment them? Is it an inevitable consequence of free will, or a test of faith?

 

[AaronAzrael]

I am not sure whether I am missing some deeper meaning, I think something is too elusive for me to grasp and fathom, but here are some suggestions...
So, Melkor's wrong choice created a ripple effect that influenced the whole "team," the entire interconnected system of Middle-earth. His fall into evil didn’t just affect him—it affected the Elves, the Valar, and the entire world. The newborn Elves, in particular, suffered because of their vulnerability and lack of understanding, but their suffering was part of a larger, divine plan to lead them toward wisdom and growth.

The interconnectedness of all beings in Middle-earth means that the choices of one person—whether good or evil—can affect the entire system. While the Elves were not responsible for Melkor's fall, they experienced the consequences of it. This dynamic reflects a larger cosmic justice in Tolkien’s world: not a simplistic retribution but a deeper process of growth, redemption, and eventual restoration of balance.
The newborn Elves, in their vulnerability and fear, are not punished by Eru or the Valar, but allowed to make choices that shape their path. Their suffering, while difficult to understand in the light of divine love, is part of a greater divine plan—a plan that respects free will, allows for growth through trials, and ultimately leads to greater wisdom and enlightenment. Divine love, in Tolkien’s world, is not about preventing suffering but about guiding beings through it, trusting that their choices, even if flawed, will ultimately bring them to a deeper understanding of the world’s true order.
The hint can be found in Eru's conclusion that Melkor and the others would find out they are part of the greater plan and nothing can happen outside of his will and they are an instrument in the Creational process of gaining more wisdom, experience before higher responsibilities. So everything needs to be worked off at the respective adequate stage and then good will arise from it.
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

SO yeah God has his timing and pace, and as cruel, scary and physically and mentally scary it may seem, it might be a way to activate some power in the Elves to use in the future aeons for greater good.

For example, I consider myself very fragile in the face of the idea for martyrdom and carnal torture but God's timing is different and as the sunset is objective towards our internal processes, so is he.

As a conclusion, the imperishable virtues of his flame can be unlocked and yielded probably mainly through martyrdom, in their case.

Although will they remember their true self, after having become corrupted? I hope so.

 

[Ent]

Oh my, @AaronSecret - here you open a magnificent feast for discussion. How splendid. We could chat for hours on points 1 and 2 alone.
Much of people's responses will be based on their personal opinions, perspectives, and worldviews of course...
I trust you won't mind if I separate them and speak to them "a point or two at a time" rather than all at once...

I also note question 9 and question 1 are identical, so will leave response to 9 off. (However, it's certainly fitting your last question returns us to the beginning, as it's from the beginning all else will flow.)

Finally, please remember, as I respond, Tolkien stated his intent was for his work to be "consonant with Christian theology," and "religious elements MUST be included in all myth and fantasy." It is from this perspective most of my thinking will be presented. (This is all very consonant with some of the work I'm doing in my own book, so it's got my attention at an unusual level I suppose.)

more to come as time allows.

(p.s. - the nature of the post also allows us to delve into some of the arenas where Tolkien specifically and intentionally diverges from Christian theology - often to the dismay of those who feel (and write) he was "unable to leave his own background and upbringing behind.")

 

[AaronAzrael]

Ah yes It must have occurred when I copied them from word. I found out it is better to write there, because sometimes forums lose the text if you click something wrong. And I must have doubled the text because I sorted them out 1 by 1 and wondered in which order to arrange them.
But yeah it must be symbolical lest a typo. D:
Everybody is free to share anything, be it based on the questions meant to facilitate the topic, be it their opinions, Tolkien research or wider imagination.
Glad I sparked your interest.

 

[Ent]

Glad I sparked your interest.

Oh, my. Have you ever..! (Ent flexes his branches and wriggles his twigs as he prepares to dive into this particular thread. Unfortunately, time will mean space - both in the start, and in the follow-ups.)

p.s. - I love your follow-up post too, as it provides a good amount of 'stuff' for folks to chew on. Can't wait for other responses to come along as well.

The post COULD go in sensitive directions, so I trust we will all "handle ourselves in maturity" and "possess ourselves in patience."
(The first quote is Ents. The 2nd quote is an old one from our Reformed brethren of the 1500s-1700s.)

 

[Ricardo]

What's your belief?
Here are some questions as brainstorm ideas:

1. How does Eru Ilúvatar’s granting of free will to the Elves and other beings play into his decision to allow Morgoth to torment them? Is it an inevitable consequence of free will, or a test of faith?
2. Did Eru Ilúvatar have knowledge of the suffering the Elves would endure, or did the unfolding events surprise him? How do prophecy and fate intertwine in the narrative of the Elves’ suffering?
3. How do the Elves interpret Morgoth's actions, and how does this influence their future decisions and allegiances (e.g., their relationships with other Valar, Maiar, and their resistance to darkness)?
4. Did the Elves question Eru Ilúvatar’s wisdom after enduring Morgoth's cruelty? What does their suffering reveal about their relationship with the Creator?
5. How can the existence of evil, especially as embodied by Morgoth’s actions, be reconciled with the notion of a benevolent, all-powerful Eru Ilúvatar? How does this challenge the understanding of divine justice in The Silmarillion?
6. What is the significance of Morgoth's power in the unfolding of the world’s history? Could the Elves have grown and flourished without him as an antagonist?
7. Did the torment of the Elves by Morgoth shape their evolution into a more powerful or enlightened race? How does their suffering shape their responses to the world around them?
8. What purpose, if any, does the suffering of the Elves serve in the grand plan of creation? Does it contribute to their eventual wisdom, strength, or understanding of the world, or just corrupt them beyond repair?
9. How does Eru Ilúvatar’s granting of free will to the Elves and other beings play into his decision to allow Morgoth to torment them? Is it an inevitable consequence of free will, or a test of faith?

1. Iluvatar granted free will to everyone. The way this plays out is Iluvatar sets the rules (that are not always clear) and the beings (elves, ainur, men, dwarves, etc.) make choices. Those choices are like choosing a path that has consequences, although the beings don't necessarily know that.
2. I don't think Iluvatar necessarily knew that, if he had set all the events in stone, there is no free will, just following a script. He of course set what would happen when beings (e.g. Melkor) made choices (torturing the elves) and that of course had ripple effects.
3. I am not sure the elves knew this. I don't think the elves consider Melkor their enemy until he burnt the trees, killed Finwe and stole the silmarils.
4. Hard to say, some probably did like some humans in real life blame God for many things.
5. I think here you are confusing Iluvatar with God. Nowhere is said that Iluvatar was benevolent, all powerful yes but I think mostly neutral. Iluvatar was inspired by the God of religions but it's not a carbon copy.
6. Well, without Morgoth the Silmarillion would have been pretty boring, there would have been no reasons for the elves to go to Aman, they certainly could have flourished anywhere but that wouldn't have been very interesting as a story.
7. Hmm, you lost me here, some elves were tortured by Morgoth later, like Gwindor, or Gelmir, that certainly didn't make them more powerful or enlightened. Gwindor was in a deplorable state when Beleg found him, he knew Finduilas could not love him and he was unable to fight as before.
As per the early elves that were tortured in Utumno, well, that's one of the theories about the origin of the orcs, they certainly weren't more enlightened.
This is tricky topic because Tolkien didn't like this idea, but he had to come up with something because Melkor could not create life, whether the orcs retain any resemblance of former elves in their soul (if they have one) is not known. Tolkien never explained it.
8. Again, not necessarily a purpose, Iluvatar said that at the end, anything that happens is according to his design, but that gets back to him setting the rules, the framework if you wish and the actors making choices that have consequences. In the end, Iluvatar's will will prevail.
9. Already answered.