Did The 💀Nazgul Wear Their Own Rings, Or Did 👁️Sauron Hold Them?

[greypilgrim]

"So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still."
[The Fellowship of the Ring]

Does this mean that the nine are held by Sauron? Is that why there was no ring lying on the ground after the Witch King was defeated by Eowin and Merry?

 

[Gothmog]

Yes. Sauron did indeed hold the rings of the Nazgul. I doubt that he would have been able to control them unless he had either their rings or the One Ring.

 

[Astaldo]

Yes but in The Council of Elrond, Gandalf says: "The Nine are kept by the Nazgul". But in the other hand we have some clues that show that Sauron had them. Except what GP said why Frodo could not see their rings in Wethertop whil he saw Galadriel's? And plus Galadriel says to Frodo: You saw the Eye of who that hold the Seven and the Nine".

So it is 99% that he had them.

 

[Ithrynluin]

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien; # 246
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.

Galadriel's words coupled with the above quote makes it 100% certain then, I suppose.

 

[Gothmog]

Thanks. I was just about to go searching for that quote, you saved me the work.

 

[greypilgrim]

Alright! Thanks for the replys.

So when did Sauron collect the rings? How did the Nazgul feel about that, how might they have reacted? When did they become wraiths, before or after the rings were taken from them?

Curious

 

[Gildor]

Alright! Thanks for the replys.

So when did Sauron collect the rings? How did the Nazgul feel about that, how might they have reacted? When did they become wraiths, before or after the rings were taken from them?

Curious

I would think that he took them after their users had become wraiths, and as such were completely under his power. I doubt that the Nazgul had any free will left at that point.

 

[Astaldo]

I would think that he took them after their users had become wraiths, and as such were completely under his power. I doubt that the Nazgul had any free will left at that point.

Yes. I support this idea.

 

[Phantom]

When Sauron had the one ring, he didn't need the nine rings to control the Nazgûl, because the one ring 'ruled them all', controling the Nazgûl while they had their rings. He would only need the nine after he had lost the one, but how would he have gotten them after he was defeted? Or did he take them from them while he was regaining power, after the one had been found again and shortly before the beginning of The Lord of the Rings.

 

[aragil]

An interesting passage from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring:

... the passage of the bridge {in Osgiliath} was effected. The forces there used were probably much less than men in Gondor thought. In the panic of the first assault, when the Witch-king was allowed to reveal himself briefly in his full terror, the Nazgûl crossed the bridge at night and dispersed northwards.

Anyone think that Sauron "allowing" the Witch-king to reveal himself might have had something to do with the WK's ring?

 

[Arvedui]

Well, I wouldn't bet against it...

 

[Ingwë]

I think they didn`twear their rings. They were kept by Sauron because he is their master.

 

[Niniel]

I just read HOME 8, and in the chapter The Siege of Gondor I came across a passage where Tolkien wrote that he Nazgul held their own rings. However, he rejected the thought immediately and deleted the passage. Christopher Tolkien in his commentary especially noted how strange this idea was, since, as he said, Tolkien had always thought that Sauron held the rings. IMHO it's clear that, except for this one passage, Tolkien always considered Sauron to have them.

 

[Ingwë]

It is very difficult to be said if the Nazguls wear their own Rings. I read UT and I read that Sauron keep the Nine Rings. You said they wore their rings and I read they didn`t. It is very debatable point and nobody could say which is true.

 

[Meselyn]

Ok, here's the story. Sauron had someone make all the rings, except the one ring. Sauron (who at the time wasn't seen as evil) gave the evils, kings, and dwarves their rings. So the kings constantly wore the rings, as most do. Then one by one they came under his power (sort of like what the one ring can do). So because the Kings now Nazgul were under his control, they didn't need them. So he got them. Then the whole stuff with the dwarves and elves happened. So basically Sauron had the Nazgul rings.

 

[Annaheru]

I would hazard a guess that the Nazgul would have held their rings while Sauron was in Numenor, when he also set aside his own ring. Also the Nazgul were so bound to Sauron that <they can only echo the will of their master> (paraphrase). That being said the text doesn't indicate that the Witch King wielded a ring. It is possible that the Nazgul ring were kept in Minas Morgul until Sauron returned to Barad-dur, when he could have simply demanded them and they, conditioned by the power of the One would have had no choice but to yield them. Just a thought . . .

 

[Arvedui]

When being stated by Tolkien that Sauron held the Nine, that can be understood in two ways:
1) He held them physically, they were gathered to Sauron.
2) Sauron held the Rings under his control through his will. The Nazgûl still wore them, but the Rings were controlled by Sauron.

I haven't seen the last option discussed anywhere, but does it sound plausible?

 

[Elthir]

I would say try plugging held as in 'control' into some of Tolkien's texts, especially this first one (not simply 'he held', but he now himself held)...

'They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held...' JRRT Unfinished Tales

'At length he (Sauron) resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.' JRRT Unfinished Tales

'I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills;...' JRRT Letters


[in the letter Tolkien talks about 'control' without the parenthetical information]
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[SIZE=-1]'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand;...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age[/SIZE]

'So it is now; the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.' The Lord of the Rings

'You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.' The Lord of the Rings



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Despite the text the Nine the Nazgul 'keep' I think the message is that sometime after losing the One Sauron took back the Nine.

Galin

 

[greypilgrim]

Good points, Aredui and Galin, it makes sense... how could Sauron's spirit "hold" the other rings of power. Wouldn't he need a hand at least?

How did the Nine stay alive without them?