Did Tolkien get the idea of using rings from Beowulf

Elbereth Vala Varda · Jun 16, 2023

Radaghast said:
who imagined the first dragon.

But you can find who wrote about the first dragon. See Epic of Gilgamesh.

Vorondil · Jun 17, 2023

I don't know what it is with you people and eggs.

Radaghast · Jun 17, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
I don't know what it is with you people and eggs.

Me neither. Perhaps the local yolkels can enlighten us? 🐣

HALETH✒🗡 · Jun 17, 2023

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
But you can find who wrote about the first dragon. See Epic of Gilgamesh.

What makes you think that there has been the very first dragon?

CheriptheRipper · Jun 17, 2023

HALETH✒🗡 said:
What makes you think that there has been the very first dragon?

Seems to check out though?
I'm not a researcher by any means but the oldest 'dragon' or dragonlike creature I can find in literature is that or the Mušḫuššu, but they originate from the same century.
Do you know of any older dragons?

HALETH✒🗡 · Jun 17, 2023

CheriptheRipper said:
Do you know of any older dragons?

I don't know of any older dragons. And I'm ready to believe that Epic of Gilgamesh has been the first source. I'm just curious to find out if anyone has done any research on the topic.

Radaghast · Jun 17, 2023

Perhaps it's the oldest documented depiction of a dragon?

Vorondil · Jun 17, 2023

Radaghast said:
Perhaps it's the oldest documented depiction of a dragon?

Nobody else ever managed to record a dragon before this because they where fried before they got a chance.

Radaghast · Jun 17, 2023

Of course, I don't know which dragon it is.

Aethelwulf said:
Nobody else ever managed to record a dragon before this because they where fried before they got a chance.

Poor dopes.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Jun 17, 2023

The Epic of Gilgamesh was essentially the first piece of literature at all, certainly fantasy literature, so I assume that the dragon depicted in there would be the first recorded one.

Vorondil · Jun 17, 2023

Elbereth Vala Varda said:
The Epic of Gilgamesh was essentially the first piece of literature at all, certainly fantasy literature, so I assume that the dragon depicted in there would be the first recorded one.

Don't you think it interesting that almost every culture in history has stories of dragons.

Elbereth Vala Varda · Jun 17, 2023

It is fascinating. Some as a depiction for evil, and some as a sign of goodness and strength... There is a lot there. Honestly, it could probably merit a thread of its own.

Ent · Jun 17, 2023

HALETH✒🗡 said:
What makes you think that there has been the very first dragon?

Radaghast said:

Perhaps it's the oldest documented depiction of a dragon?

Click to expand...

@HALETH✒🗡 - re: What makes you think that there has been the very first dragon?
... Because it is a thing twisted from something else originally generated as a part of the Ainur's song adorning Eru's theme? Therefore, there "must" be a "first".

@Radaghast - re: Perhaps it's the oldest documented depiction of a dragon?
... BANG..!! Now that's 'hitting the nail with your head'. (Paul Harvey).

@Elbereth Vala Varda - re: The Epic of Gilgamesh was essentially the first piece of literature at all,
... Understanding your sentiment, this isn't quite accurate Ent thinks. Epic of Gilgamesh is simply the oldest thing written of which a very few copies (2 Ent has confirmed so far, and they are quite different) and some fragments have been found. And if one could write at the time the oldest of those was done, others could write as well.

Ent's viewpoint (different from an opinion) is there is a 99.998 % likelihood in verbal lore preceding writing, and older written lore unknown, tales of dragons existed.

(Very sorry, Ent has a hard time dropping his 'literalist' bent..!)

Elthir · Jun 17, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
I don't know what it is with you people and eggs.

For the record I brought up magic shoes.

I never said they were dancing on yeggs.

until now

Ent · Jun 17, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
I don't know what it is with you people and eggs.

Ent thinks one could say MANY have had this same reaction.

Careful observation from his hill in the forest from which he sees much that goes on in the world, Ent has come to believe it's somewhat of an old inside 'joke' or such, promulgated again occassionally by those who bring it back at absurd and meaningless times when the mood is light and the atmosphere seems appropriate.

Several have spoken up about it, including Ent, with never a real history being provided...just more eggings.

Ultimately many have chosen to eggnore it, while others have simply egged them on.
Of course, Ent eggscuses himself from any such eggsploits. (Or not.)

(Just be aware the 🥓 also shows up at times.)

HALETH✒🗡 · Jun 17, 2023

Ent said:
Because it is a thing twisted from something else originally generated as a part of the Ainur's song adorning Eru's theme? Therefore, there "must" be a "first".

Yes, I understand that the first one must be mentioned somewhere. By "there" I meant Epic of Gilgamesh in particular.

Olorgando · Jun 17, 2023

Ent said:
Ent thinks one could say MANY have had this same reaction.
(Just be aware the 🥓 also shows up at times.)

We've probably all read "The Hobbit". Weeeeell, every time Bilbo has the feeling he's out of place where he is at a particular time, what does he think of? Being back home. And what does he imagine himself doing practically every time ?

We're all just little Bilbo clones ... 🥓🥚🥓🥚🥓🥚🥓🥚🥓🥚

Amon Rudh · Jun 17, 2023

Ent said:
@HALETH✒🗡 - re: What makes you think that there has been the very first dragon?
... Because it is a thing twisted from something else originally generated as a part of the Ainur's song adorning Eru's theme? Therefore, there "must" be a "first".

@Radaghast - re: Perhaps it's the oldest documented depiction of a dragon?
... BANG..!! Now that's 'hitting the nail with your head'. (Paul Harvey).

@Elbereth Vala Varda - re: The Epic of Gilgamesh was essentially the first piece of literature at all,
... Understanding your sentiment, this isn't quite accurate Ent thinks. Epic of Gilgamesh is simply the oldest thing written of which a very few copies (2 Ent has confirmed so far, and they are quite different) and some fragments have been found. And if one could write at the time the oldest of those was done, others could write as well.

Ent's viewpoint (different from an opinion) is there is a 99.998 % likelihood in verbal lore preceding writing, and older written lore unknown, tales of dragons existed.

(Very sorry, Ent has a hard time dropping his 'literalist' bent..!)

Not sure if they were first but the dragon was one of 12 animals listed as part of the Chinese zodiac which seems to have origins in 5th century BCE.

Chinese Zodiac | History

Vorondil · Jun 18, 2023

This thread has caught a very bad case of Derailmentitus.

Olorgando · Jun 18, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
This thread has caught a very bad case of Derailmentitus.

As an undeniable "tangent troll", I can confirm your appraisal. 😏

But then, owning three translations of "Beowulf", including JRRT' own prose version edited by Christopher and published in 2014, my feeling is that rings played an almost non-existent role in that tale. Not much fodder for discussion. What JRRT lifted from "Beowulf", by his own admission, was Bilbo stealing the cup from Smaug's hoard on his first visit. That would also not have led to much discussion had the question been asked of this scene; actually, only one answering post would have been necessary there: "Yes."

I know about doing OP's that peter out without many replies (on-topic, anyway). Only one of my OP's ever made it past page 1:

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/how-did-smaug-or-any-other-firedrake-produce-their-flames.30789/

Did Tolkien get the idea of using rings from Beowulf

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