Did turin fight ⚔️war of wrath?

[Gothmog]

I have been looking again at these prophecies and I believe I can say with certainty that the Prophecy of Andreth is not canon. It was never set for publishing by JRRT himself. Now, as for whether it could be "Secondary" Canon (that is the works of Christopher Tolkien directly using the extant writings of JRRT) then that is a possibility.

However, even if you accept that the Prophecy is to be "canon" in the same way as the published Silmarillion and the full novels published by Christopher, you first have to decide if it is the Prophecy of Andreth or one of the Dooms of Mandos. Once you have chosen between "Manish" or "Valarian" lore then that would still only mean that it would be canon As a Prophecy! Turin Turambar has not dealt Melkor his "Death Blow". Melkor has not returned to Arda. Manwe has not decended from Taniquetil. There has been no Dagor Dagorath. The Battle of all Battles is to happen at the End Times of Arda, that is still some time in the future.

All Prophecies "foretell what is to happen" to a greater or lesser degree. It is certain that within Tolkien's universe, the Dooms of Mandos are based in his clear knowledge of the Music of the Ainur and therefore are accurate foretellings. The Manish lore of Andreth would be based on other means. Some foretelling by Man is shown to be accurate but we cannot be so certain of all. The Prophecy of Andreth could be based more on wishful thinking than actual Foresight.

 

[Elthir]

Again, depends upon what one means by canon, but in reference to certain Silmarillion draft texts
(none of which are canon according to my definition), even Christopher Tolkien states . . .

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

Why does Christopher Tolkien seem so certain? I'd say 'cause (and here's the passage he refers to that was used to conclude the constructed Quenta Silmarillion) . . .

A) "Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.'" JRRT

And B)

"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition." JRRT

*note 19 " . . . in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333, . . . ) the Prophecy of Mandos." CJRT

And for myself, I can't easily ignore the chronology of Tolkien's thinking here.

 

[Gothmog]

Again, depends upon what one means by canon, but in reference to certain Silmarillion draft texts
(none of which are canon according to my definition), even Christopher Tolkien states . . .

"The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255)." Christopher Tolkien

Why does Christopher Tolkien seem so certain? I'd say 'cause (and here's the passage he refers to that was used to conclude the constructed Quenta Silmarillion) . . .

A) "Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.'" JRRT

And B)

"It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition." JRRT

*note 19 " . . . in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333, . . . ) the Prophecy of Mandos." CJRT

And for myself, I can't easily ignore the chronology of Tolkien's thinking here.

I'm not going to get in the "Canon Debate" here, but I will say in reference to the two versions:

If it was one of the Dooms of Mandos then it would not be an Elvish myth or legend but a straight foretelling of the Truth by one who knows.
If it was not one of the Dooms of Mandos then it would have to be myth or legend and therefore not of Elvish lore but of Men.

 

[Elthir]

Keeping in mind that the Second Prophecy turned Numenorean Myth was about more than the Dagor Dagorath, I recently "what iffed" elsewhere . . .

What if Arda Healed was to be encapsulated (even by implication) by the Incarnation of God, in conjunction with Finrod's vision of Arda Remade? "They say", answered Andreth: "they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." JRRT, Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

And what if Andreth's prophecy about the War of Wrath was the basis for a later, garbled Numenorean Myth about the End Times?

That's a way to keep both ideas "in story" anyway . . .

. . . and what if Hobbits were ten feet tall!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Elthir]

This topic may have been discussed before. But in this article, I think the author says that Turin was both in the War of Wrath and in Dagor Dagorath. What do you think?

After finally getting to read the essay (the one you linked to), unless I missed something, I do not think that's what the author is saying. At one point, this article reads

"Through the numerous changes to the stories and characters Turin lost his divine future — instead of being reborn as a god (much like Hercules . . . ) Turin was simply to return for a brief time at the end of the First Age to help defeat Morgoth before dying a final death."

This seems to be focusing on earlier descriptions, in which, for examples, Túrin and Nienóri entered into the bath of flame, "and dwelt as shining Valar among the Blessed Ones" -- or in a later text, naming Túrin among the Gods.

So as I read it, instead of this part of Túrin's fate, Tolkien had changed his mind to the fate of Andreth's Prophecy.

__________

A section that I think could be possibly confusing here is the following.

"( . . .) Some people have suggested that given the amount of editorial intrusion Christopher exercised (including writing “The Ruin of Doriath” for The Silmarillion) that he could have justified including Turin’s return at the end of the First Age."

"But to restore Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have diminished the story of Eärendil, . . . "

Agree with this opinion or not (I do not agree with everything in this essay, incidentally) . . .

[by the way, this essay doesn't include Christopher Tolkien's statement that the Second Prophecy had definitively vanished, or the two Tolkien-written statements that I quoted above]

. . . I note that the author of this article responds to an argument about justifying (for possible inclusion in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion) Túrin's return at the end of the First Age -- with a statement
about a text that does not refer to Túrin's return at the end of the First Age.

Here I would have expected something more like (if I agreed with the comment that is): "to have included the Prophecy of Andreth would have diminished the story of Earendil" (because that is about the End of the First Age, and that would take away the killing of Ancalagon by Earendil).

Anyway. It's another article written by someone on the web.

Granted . . . I'm just a cat in a coat on the web, but there it is.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Well, Happy Birthday anyway, cat.

 

[Elthir]

Thanks S-eS!

Actually, today is my "less official" birthday (I have another one). Ah, the fun, paperwork imperfections of the ancient 20th century!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I believe you can change dates on your profile page. 😉

 

[Elthir]

I guess my younger self wanted to note the less official one back when.

Can't recall why

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

View attachment 14729

What an odd depiction......

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I guess my younger self wanted to note the less official one back when.

Can't recall why

Are you a secret agent?