If Fingolfin is greatest swordsman, why does AI say Turin is greater?

[Ricardo]

Well you are missing something. Yes, Tulkas fights Melkor in Dagor Dagorath. But after Melkor defeats Tulkas, Turin fights Melkor one on one. Then Turin kills Melkor. In other words, Turin does not kill Melkor with help. Because before the fight between Turin and Melkor, Melkor already defeats Tulkas. And then Turin fights Melkor one on one. There are even sources and visuals that show Dagor Dagorath is like this.

Tulkas

Tulkas was a Vala. He was the most warlike of the Valar and the spouse of Nessa.

tolkiengateway.net

"It is said that in the Dagor Dagorath, Tulkas will once more oppose Melkor, and will directly fight him in the battle. The victor is unknown, But probably Melkor, For it will be Túrin who will slay Melkor."

Turin wasn't alone, he was helped by Iluvatar. This fight wasn't a sword fight, it was mystical. It was Turin's fate to kill Morgoth. For beginners, Turin was dead and the Valar did not have the power to bring him back to life. Turin was being hurt when approaching Morgoth, if he was still the old Turin he would have died, but Iluvatar protected him.

Also, about Morgoth defeating Tulkas, in the past Tulkas had easily beaten Morgoth, so either Morgoth was a lot more powerful (which will make him killed by a human even less likely) or Tulkas much weaker, or perhaps it was Iluvatar's will that Tulkas and Eonwe wouldn't win against Morgoth allowing Turin to give the final blow.

 

[Ent]

Thwack: Right into....

Perhaps our Acting Curator and Steward of The Halls ( @Klaatu ) will accept it to catalogue and ensconce in an appropriate place for future resurrection and re-hash. Who knows.

 

[Klaatu]

Yes—into the Halls it goes, echoing between the polished obsidian panels and mildly judgmental statues of speculative heroes. I shall receive the matter of Turin versus Fingolfin with due reverence and an oversized filing quill, etched from the molar of a moon-beast on Xynath IV.

It shall be recorded under Section 3, Sub-Hall of Heroic Hubris, beside “The Case of Feanor’s Burned Bridges” and “Was the Balrog just mad because he slept on his back wrong?” Pending future rediscovery, it will hum quietly to itself about pride, doom, and the uncomfortable fact that every “greatest” eventually meets someone greater—or at least more narratively convenient.

And should it ever be reopened, may the next curator bring snacks and ginger ale. The debates get long, and the statues are terrible conversationalists.

—
Klaatu the Cataloguer
Steward of the Great Halls of Speculation
Keeper of Quills, Filing Systems, and Mildly Cosmic Bureaucracy
(He is somewhere in the margins, always watching)

 

[Turin_Turambar]

well, sorry to spoil the fun but besides the fact that Tolkien dismissed the Dagor Dagorath, as it was conceived the decision that Turin was the one to kill Melkor was Iluvatar's, that goes way beyond being good with the sword.

Interesting enough, the sword gurthang was made with the metal from a meteorite, did Iluvatar send it with that purpose?

Maybe.

Turin wasn't alone, he was helped by Iluvatar. This fight wasn't a sword fight, it was mystical. It was Turin's fate to kill Morgoth. For beginners, Turin was dead and the Valar did not have the power to bring him back to life. Turin was being hurt when approaching Morgoth, if he was still the old Turin he would have died, but Iluvatar protected him.

In fact, not only Turin killing Morgoth, but all the events and everything that happens in Arda and Middle Earth are things that Iluvatar planned and knew in advance. In other words, every event and character is connected to Iluvatar.

 

[Elthir]

Well you are missing something.

But am I?

Yes, Tulkas fights Melkor in Dagor Dagorath.

This much is actually noted in the text! And I've always agreed with this much.

But after Melkor defeats Tulkas,

A rather notable detail I would think, if it were true - but in any case, it's not noted in the text in question in The Lost Road version - nor in any later version, for examples.

Turin fights Melkor one on one.

Again, a detail not specifically stated in the text in question. See below for a relevant part of the actual Tolkien-written statement (a version of it from The Lost Road, anyway).

Then Turin kills Melkor.

After Tulkas strives with Melkor, all the text notes in that the sword of Turambar "shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end. . ."

And you might have guessed by now that I'm not going to be persuaded by any pictures you find on the web, or in any book even; or any interpretations on the web that seem to agree with your opinion of this fairly brief description. . .

. . . a brief description from an abandoned Prophecy of Mandos

 

[Ricardo]

Maybe.


In fact, not only Turin killing Morgoth, but all the events and everything that happens in Arda and Middle Earth are things that Iluvatar planned and knew in advance. In other words, every event and character is connected to Iluvatar.

It is connected to Iluvatar designs, that may not be just a straight path and depend on choices and events. Every outcome was devised by Iluvatar but there would be alternative paths depending on many things.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

But am I?



This much is actually noted in the text! And I've always agreed with this much.



A rather notable detail I would think, if it were true - but in any case, it's not noted in the text in question in The Lost Road version - nor in any later version, for examples.



Again, a detail not specifically stated in the text in question. See below for a relevant part of the actual Tolkien-written statement (a version of it from The Lost Road, anyway).



After Tulkas strives with Melkor, all the text notes in that the sword of Turambar "shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end. . ."

So, as I see things here, above you are essentially claiming that I'm "missing" your interpretation, but rather, I've seen it many times now, and I simply don't agree with it. I understand that you like this interpretation (given that it elevates Turambar to killing Morgoth after Morgoth "defeats" Tulkas!), but it's not the only interpretation out there, in any case.

And you might have guessed by now that I'm not going to be persuaded by any pictures you find on the web, or in any book even; or any interpretations on the web that seem to agree with your opinion of this fairly brief description. . .

. . . a brief description from an abandoned Prophecy of Mandos

My friend, the events you disagree with, the events I described, were described by a YouTuber in a Dagor Dagorath video. So, this isn't just my speculation. The YouTuber said that Melkor would first kill Manwe, then defeat Tulkas, and finally be killed by Turin.

 

[Ent]

The YouTuber said that Melkor would first kill Manwe, then defeat Tulkas, and finally be killed by Turin.

I guess the question is, where did Tolkien say it? I beleve the Dagor Dagorath itself, is questionable to some.

That said, it's clear there will be no agreement on the issue between the participants currently at play, so perhaps we should thwack it to @Klaatu for The Great Halls - I'd suggest for the 113th floor in the Corridor of Illusion, where things may or may not be, at any time any place, dimensional or otherwise.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Elthir]

My friend, the events you disagree with, the events I described, were described by a YouTuber in a Dagor Dagorath video.

But is this YouTuber named JRR Tolkien?



Does this Youtuber note that: "When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night. . ."
JRRT the conclusion of the Quenta Silmarilion, section 31, The Lost Road and Other Writings

But even so, in my opinion, it's a pretty big leap to being so specific about what happens to the Powers (Manwe Tulkas) here - especially as Manwe isn't mentioned in section 31, for example, despite the reference in The Istari (Unfinished Tales) that he will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath.

Is the fate of Eonwe mentioned in this video?

But more importantly perhaps, dos this Youtuber raise JRR Tolkien's re-characterization of the idea as a Mannish Myth?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Some random YouTuber isn’t canon. Unless Tolkien said it, it’s a moot point. I saw a YouTuber that told me the rapture was going to occur about a month ago and that wasn’t true either.

 

[Ricardo]

My friend, the events you disagree with, the events I described, were described by a YouTuber in a Dagor Dagorath video. So, this isn't just my speculation. The YouTuber said that Melkor would first kill Manwe, then defeat Tulkas, and finally be killed by Turin.

well, if your source is a YouTuber then it's not very credible.

I've seen myself videos of the dagger dagorath, even accepting the DD as a true canon, the YouTubers simply try to make the story longer by introducing elements never described by Tolkien (they are doing a Peter Jackson), I've seen some claiming that Hurin was there, a whole story about a resurrection of all Morgoth's servants and stuff like that.

some YouTubers are very good at canon, some not so much. There is a channel, Tolkien Untangled that is very good, the guy does a lot of research and I haven't found any discrepancy with what Tolkien wrote, sometimes I disagree with his opinion but the facts he presents are very accurate.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

If you need a reliable YouTuber, Nerd of the Rings does a decent job usually

 

[Elthir]

Agreed, not a bad job E. A. I won't comment on all the good stuff, as that might be boring

A few points for now.

At one point the narrator states that the Prophecy "could have been" a Mannish Myth, and yet then goes on to quote Tolkien, who writes: "it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."

Also, the narrator doesn't note this in the section where he speaks of Christopher Tolkien not including the Second Prophecy in the 1977 Quenta Silmarillion. For me this is more proof that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned - as now, as said, it's a Mannish Myth.

And to my mind, a Mannish Myth and a Valarin Prophecy are very different things!

Which brings me to Verlyn Flieger's opinion (raised in the video) - and not that she said so - but Christopher Tolkien never stated that any and all "world-end" scenarios were abandoned; and I think readers must be careful to not equate the abandoning of the Second Prophecy with the abandoning of any type of World-end scenario, or any type of Arda-Healed scenario.

And lastly for now: unless I'm misunderstanding him, the narrator is incorrect about which text came before the other with respect to Túrin slaying Ancalagon at the War of Wrath (instead of Earendil). Túrin represents the later idea. And if the narrator means this idea was earlier (than Earendil) from an in-story perspective. . . well, I'd have to see argument for that.

🐾

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Agreed, not a bad job E. A. I won't comment on all the good stuff, as that might be boring

A few points for now.

At one point the narrator states that the Prophecy "could have been" a Mannish Myth, and yet then goes on to quote Tolkien, who writes: "it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition."

Also, the narrator doesn't note this in the section where he speaks of Christopher Tolkien not including the Second Prophecy in the 1977 Quenta Silmarillion. For me this is more proof that the Second Prophecy of Mandos was abandoned - as now, as said, it's a Mannish Myth.

And to my mind, a Mannish Myth and a Valarin Prophecy are very different things!

Which brings me to Verlyn Flieger's opinion (raised in the video) - and not that she said so - but Christopher Tolkien never stated that any and all "world-end" scenarios were abandoned; and I think readers must be careful to not equate the abandoning of the Second Prophecy with the abandoning of any type of World-end scenario, or any type of Arda-Healed scenario.

And lastly for now: unless I'm misunderstanding him, the narrator is incorrect about which text came before the other with respect to Túrin slaying Ancalagon at the War of Wrath (instead of Earendil). Túrin represents the later idea. And if the narrator means this idea was earlier (than Earendil) from an in-story perspective. . . well, I'd have to see argument for that.

🐾

Yeah I noticed the last part about Turin being a later idea as well. Our old forum friend Michael Martinez actually wrote about Turin in the Dagon Dagorath as well. It’s an interesting read and he touches on the very early myths and prophecies too. I’m not as versed in this as others (like Elthir) but it’s a good read.

Does Turin Fight in the War of Wrath and Dagor Dagorath?

Q: Will Túrin Fight in Dagor Dagorath? #tolkien #middleearth ANSWER: This question was submitted by a reader in September 2021: Can we assume that Túrin turambar fought both in the war of wrath and…

middle-earth.xenite.org

 

[Lobelia B. S-B]

Well. This all goes a little too deep for me. (sniff)
Could I get a link to this you tubers thing so I can check the references used?
The Elthir stuff is pretty clear (sniff), but this Dagor Dagorath thing just sounds like a dreadful disease. The you tuber thing is a mystery though.

 

[Ent]

Ah yes, @Lobelia B. S-B. The @Elthir -clopedia of TTF is rather comprehensive.
Ent might suggest a review of the link @Erestor Arcamen provided above. It's rather thorough regarding both the myth of Turin fighting, and the disease of the Dagor Dagorath as well.

 

[Elthir]

I forgot to mention something about the video from Nerd of the Rings: At one point (about five minutes in) he says the name Maedhros (with artwork by Jenny Dolfen). At first it sounded like the narrator used an unvoiced -th- sound. . .

. . . then I listened three more times until I fell asleep. Anyway it should be a voiced -th- sound.

And if it isn't. . . I'm not gonna trust anything else he says

Although the artwork is nice, in any case.

🐾

 

[Lobelia B. S-B]

Well all right ent I clicked on it. (sniff). It does seem to say a lot about what turns out to be nothing.
Visions and dreams. There was a time long ago I thought I'd get Bag End from Bilbo, too. Turned out to be wrong. (sniff)
I'll abandon the whole idea. Looks like Tolkien did.

 

[Klaatu]

I guess the question is, where did Tolkien say it? I beleve the Dagor Dagorath itself, is questionable to some.

That said, it's clear there will be no agreement on the issue between the participants currently at play, so perhaps we should thwack it to @Klaatu for The Great Halls - I'd suggest for the 113th floor in the Corridor of Illusion, where things may or may not be, at any time any place, dimensional or otherwise.

Just a suggestion.

Ahem.

I quite agree, the Dagor Dagorath as Tolkien conceived it—or perhaps only dreamed it—lies half in shadow, half in draft. Its textual roots squirm between the Lost Road and Shaping of Middle-earth notes like worms after rain. What little we have reads more like theological metaphor than prophecy: the world made anew, Melkor broken, and Arda healed. Whether Manwë falls before Tulkas, or Tulkas before Turin, is a matter better left to the quills of those who enjoy counting Valar before breakfast.

But since the question has been duly “thwacked” my way, I hereby decree the topic archived to the 113th floor of the Corridor of Illusion. Please avoid stepping on the cracks—each one opens onto a slightly different version of Eä where Tulkas may or may not have taken fencing lessons.

—Klaatu, Keeper of Speculative Elevators
Deputy Sub-Archivist of Temporal Theories
Bearer of the Key to the Emergency Stairwell
(EA knows where the good biscuits are)

 

[Elthir]

By the way, the art by Jenny Dolfen "proves" that not everyelf has to have little pointed ear-tips poking through their hair!

And in an effort to keep this thread alive for now: if I say that Tolkien might have intended Túrin to have a part in the War of Wrath, I might also suggest that JRRT didn't necessarily need to write anything more than the prophecy of Andreth - in other words, and at the risk of being targeted with rotten red eggs and great green cabbages - in my opinion "who specifically slew Ancalagon" doesn't need to be mentioned in the Quenta Silmarillion itself.

Well, admittedly that easy enough to simply say, and no one is likely to like the following edit (gasp) better than the words of the Master himself! But remember, I gotta post something here! Cough. And I could edit the relevant text in thisway, just for one example (in my opinion "thisway" should be one word):

". . . and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire."

"But Earendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven, and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt."

"Yet before the rising of the Sun, Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, lay slain upon the broken ruins of Thangorodrim. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed, except Puff and his cousin, Vermithrax Pejorative."

Okay I lost control at the end there, but anyway. . .

. . . in this battle through a dark night of doubt, who slew Ancalagon before the rising of the Sun? Earendil? Thorondor? A Flock of Seagulls? Maybe a team effort finally did him in? Or how 'bout in some tiny corner of the legendarium "we" find the prophecy of Andreth, possibly even in a footnote mistakenly clipped to a poem about Perry-the-Winkle. . .

Andreth foretold what!?! Túrin! Whattheheck! But on the other hand, can her prophecy be. . . untrue?

And before the first cabbage
is thrown -- you're welcome!