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Discussion: The Disaster at Gladden Fields

Chymaera

Doorwarden
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Jan 7, 2002
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In The Unfinished Tales, Disaster at the Gladden Fields. As Isildur was surrounded by Orcs, Elendur came to his father and said;
'Atarinya what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?
to which Isildur replied;
Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strenght to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.

Clearly Isildur has change his mind about the ring and was going to see Rivendale to surrender the ring to Elrond (one of the Keepers of the Three).
Now did the ring it self orchestrate the ambush to rescue itself destruction or would this just be a coinidence?

Also the ring had burned Isildur's hand but it did not Bilbo or Frodo, I am not sure if it was recorded if Déagol or Sméagol were burned.
 
It burnt Isildur hand because it had just come off Sauron's hand, whose body heat killed Gil-Galad so it was bound to be hot.

I doubt whether Isildur would've actually handed it over, even though his plan was to do so, or if anyone would've accepted it. (P.S It's Rivendell not Rivendale.)
 
Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar; Gil-galad, Galadriel and Círdan. The Return of the King. Appendix

I would question whether Isildur actually knew who the Keepers of the Three were, if he did, how could he know? If he did not, how would he have gotten the Ring to them and would he have given it up? Did not Celebrimbor wrought the 3 rings in secret and their existence was not known to any save the bearers? If this is the case, how could Isildur know that he could pass his to the Keepers of the Three? Then again, did not Galadriel say the Rings could only be seen by another Ringbearer?
 
There is a possibility. Perhaps he knew about them from Elrond, the existence of the 3 Rings, after all they were allies in the Siege and knowing about the lore of the Rings would help in the actual battle.
Also, when Isildur gained the Ring, it is quite possible that he had a meeting with Elrond with his elven Ring and because Isildur had the one ring, he could see Elrond's ring. Therefore he knew that Elrond had one, and was going to give him the One Ring.
 
Originally posted by Inderjit S
It burnt Isildur hand because it had just come off Sauron's hand, whose body heat killed Gil-Galad so it was bound to be hot.
I will agree that as time went by the ring would cool off. and laying at bottom of the Audiun river hellped cool it off after.
Originally posted by Inderjit S
I doubt whether Isildur would've actually handed it over, even though his plan was to do so, or if anyone would've accepted it. (P.S It's Rivendell not Rivendale.)
He seemed to be having a change of heart but we will never know if he would have followed through. (thanks for the correction I must have been corrupted by an Archie cartoon:D)
Originally posted by Ancalagon
I would question whether Isildur actually knew who the Keepers of the Three were, if he did, how could he know?
I gave a direct quote from Unfinished Tales. Perhaps he knew because he was one of the leaders of men in the Last Alliance of Elves and Men and because Elrond and Cirdan told him at the Cracks of Doom. When they tried to pursued him to destroy the ring.
 
Once upon a time I too thought on this and back then we had a little nice discussion.
So, I thought you might find it interesting :rolleyes:

here it is
 
Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strenght to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.
Notice here that Isuldur is talking in Plural, about the keeper(s) of the three. So he knows that the rings are three and one can assume that he knows about the identity of these three keepers.
How could he have known them?
Isuldur doesn't necessarily have to see the Three rings in order to know about their identity. Perhaps he was informed when G-G gave his ring to Elrond before his death.

I too am not sure whether he would have handed the Ring to the Wise or they would have taken it. Perhaps here The Ring is talking through Isuldur's mouth. The Ring has seen that Isuldur is being achingly difficult to control or manipulate completely or wholly to its own will, so it wants to go to a more powerful person, an elf maybe. To corrupt him, for a great person will recongise the Ring's virtue's and would understand that by using the ring he can rule the whole world, and even though he may not be a bad person yet the allurance and the power the Ring might bestow to him would be too teasing. He might have good motives when he would try to use the ring. But the ring would soon conquer the person's will and corrupt him and so a new darklord will appear.
It should go to the Keepers of the Three.
This phrase to me indicates that partially, if not wholly Isuldur himself has also become subject to the power of the Ring. In his right mind he would never have thought about bestowing such a powerful artifiact to the care of the Guardians, who even without the ring are great. The chances of Corruption would have been too great. So i think it is the ring speaking, the Ring want's to get away from Isuldur, to pursue someone more powerful and someone that could be bent more to its will.

Now did the ring it self orchestrate the ambush to rescue itself destruction or would this just be a coinidence?

I don't think it was concidence. The ring wanted to get out, so it increased its power and its effect, stirring the evil orcs that lived in those fields.

I also agree with Meadhros' assumptions.
 
Thread moved out of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. Hopefully, there are members out there with opinions on this subject.
 
Well, on the subject of the three rings I don't think it was as _dangerous_ to disclose who the ring bearer were to a select few.

Isildur would qualify under this "select few". Considering that one of the ring-bearers, Gil-Galad was slain in the war (though he "gave his rings to Elrond, when he found Rivendell and Círdan) and there may have been discussion on who should now have his rings and who would make the best use of them. Isildur, as the new "king" of the Elves closest and greatest allies, the Númenóreans. He was also a "ring bearer" even though Elrond and Círdan were not too happy about that. He may have viewed any secret discussion or discussions which excluded him, as an aggressive move on the part of the Elves, who had already voiced their misgivings about him keeping the ring. Were they trying to ostracize him? Were they jealous of his new-fangled power? As Tolkien states, Isildur was a man of "great vigour" and he would have wanted to get involved with any discussions or councils, him being one of the most important leaders in Middle-Earth. Somehow I think that Isildur was a bit of a egoist. The ring may have acted as a catalyst in his egotism. The rings sure played on the weaknesses or desires of it's bearers. Isildur was also pretty bellicose and impetuous.

So, Isildur may have been informed about the ring due to necessity and to avoid trouble and because he was a ring bearer, and possibly because the Elves wanted to tell him. But of course, they should have known about the possibility of the ring enslaving Isildur's mind and the risk that came with telling the bearer of the one about the Elves rings. Wasn't there an essence of superfluity and risk in telling Isildur about her rings? Plus, Elrond knew that Sauron was not _dead_ or to be fastidious about it, he knew that Sauron was still a potent (though vanquished) force, brooding somewhere in Arda until he felt it was time to come back. It could be in 500 years or a thousand or even 10 thousand. And so even if at the time Sauron was not the salient problem, he was still somewhere lurking in the background. Also, Isildur could have refuted some of Elrond and Círdan’s arguments. Why didn't they destroy _their_ Elven rings? They were a risk too weren’t' they. So he may have though that the Elven argument was a cognitive dissonance, the Elves, in telling Isildur to destroy the ring are forgetting about and contradicting their own weakness in not destroying "their" rings and their refusal to destroy the rings after the overthrow of Sauron. This may have hardened Isildur's desire to keep the ring, what was (in his eyes) a blatant case of Elvish hypocrisy. Of course the ring would have been "messing with his head", considering that he was so close to Mount Doom. Ringbearers get a lot crazier the closer they get to Mount Doom. Or rather the perfidious Ring's powers of persuasion are greater the closer you get to Mount Doom. Remember he tells Elendur that his "pride has fallen". Did he think he could control it or something?

Isildur may have found out about the Elves rings whilst he was wearing the ring. But this is impossible. He only wore it once, after he cut it off Sauron's finger, and the Elves weren't wearing their rings at the time. So such an argument may be fallacious. He may have seen them without actually wearing the ring.

Or what if the Gil-Galad told Elendil about it at one time or another. Did he trust him enough to tell him? Most definitely? But was it safe to tell him? Not really. Who knows. I don't think Gil-Galad was capable of such foolish actions. Even Aragorn reprimands Frodo for telling him that Galadriel is a ring-bearer. And would Elendil tell Isildur? Or was it necessary for the Elves to tell Elendil or his sons about the Ringbearers?

Isildur seems to be pretty careless about the "secret". He tells his son, we can even gather, by his words to Elendur that Elendur knew something of the matter beforehand. Elendur was of course in his father's full confidence, and rightly so. Admittedly the Númenóreans were practically at deaths door anyway so even if he did spring it on him then and there it wouldn't have mattered very much. Though their conversation was obviously overheard. It was still pretty risky.

Perhaps he was informed when G-G gave his ring to Elrond before his death.

Gil-Galad gave the ring to Elrond when he set up Imladris. Tolkien gives two different dates for the giving of Narya to Círdan. One states that he gave it to Círdan as soon as he received it and one that he gave it to him close to the events of the Last Alliance. The former view is the "canonical" one.
 
Now did the ring it self orchestrate the ambush to rescue itself destruction or would this just be a coinidence?
The Ring drew evil to it, wanting to always return to Sauron. With Sauron vanquished for the time, the ring managed to find a safe resting place at the bottom of the Anduin, then with Gollum in the mountain. So the attack that wiped out Isildur and his party wasn't engineered by the ring, but its effect may have given the orcs some mental insight that the party was moving through the Gladden.
 

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