Do the physical dimensions of 🐲Dragons rival the Valar's?

@Teleporno Celeborn
Our discussion is hilarious to me.. like 2 kids arguing: Sega VS Nintendo.
(btw Sega is better and cooler)

Teleporno Celeborn said:

Also, while Feanor's army was fighting against Morgoth, trolls, wargs, werewolves had not yet been created

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Not true.
All these creatures existed in the first age, and was mentioned in specific events. Hurin killed a lots of Trolls, and Sauron had a lot's of wargs, werewolves, in his tower in first age, while being SERVANT to Morgoth.
Plus Morgoth had a beings that Sauron couldn't control, like Balrogs... and even against all Balrogs, Feanor with his personal guards, fought for long time.

Teleporno Celeborn said:

But what I mean is that because of the size and strength of the army of Numenor, Sauron and his army surrendered without even a fight. Morgoth's armies never surrendered to the Noldor elves without a fight. There is a clear difference between numenor and noldor here.

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Yes, and that should tell you something.
Feanor army was small. Morgoth forces, being a much much larger army assumed that they could win, but they were being decimated after fight... this is how powerful Noldors are. They make Morgoth shake in scare in his throne.
If there was no curse upon Noldors, and with Fingolfin forces, they would devastate whole Angbad and destroy Morgoth physical form.

Elthir said:

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It's a fake image.
Fingolfin had his horse with him.
Where's the horse?
WHERE'S THE HORSE???

d4rk3lf said:

@Teleporno Celeborn
Our discussion is hilarious to me.. like 2 kids arguing: Sega VS Nintendo.
(btw Sega is better and cooler)


Not true.
All these creatures existed in the first age, and was mentioned in specific events. Hurin killed a lots of Trolls, and Sauron had a lot's of wargs, werewolves, in his tower in first age, while being SERVANT to Morgoth.
Plus Morgoth had a beings that Sauron couldn't control, like Balrogs... and even against all Balrogs, Feanor with his personal guards, fought for long time.


Yes, and that should tell you something.
Feanor army was small. Morgoth forces, being a much much larger army assumed that they could win, but they were being decimated after fight... this is how powerful Noldors are. They make Morgoth shake in scare in his throne.
If there was no curse upon Noldors, and with Fingolfin forces, they would devastate whole Angbad and destroy Morgoth physical form.

Click to expand...

my friend, both trolls, wargs, and werewolves were absent in the battle of Dagor-nuin-giliath. Because these beings were created by Morgoth during the siege of Angband. These beings were created during the siege of Angband. Morgoth thought that the Orcs alone were useless and created new beings, including the Glaurung. these beings fought in the wars after the siege of Angband.

Huorn said:

They can't create anything, being created beings themselves.

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I agree with what Huorn said @Aethelwulf. The Ainur, as far as those who descended into Ea cannot create any living (let us probably say sentient) things of their own. The revealing comment from the Silmarillion Huorn is probably referring to is:

Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. (QS: Of Aule and Yavanna)

If we assume this to be a more or less accurate rendering of the dialogue between Eru and Aule then in theory the Ainur could create beings of their own, who would only "live" as long as the will of the creating Ainur is on them.
As such you could of course always argue that maybe Melkor did himself created the dragons such a Aule created the Dwarves before Eru made them sentient. They would only be alive tho as long as Melkor had his mind set on them, which considering them being "articles of war" isn't that far fetched a thought. Obviously you would then have to find an explanation for the apparent "sentient" behavior of dragons, and most of all for the existence of that fine example Smaug.

What seems to be most likely, and what is my interpretation, is that Melkor devised the form and function of dragons and animated those articles of war with lesser Ainur from his entourage. The article and the Ainur in time would merge, becoming something similar to the case of Melian, where the spirit got bound to the physical body, making it impossible for the Ainur to return to their former state.

Great points @mahalmar
I am still uncertain of some thigs you said (because of my poor English).
But from what I understood - great points!

@d4rk3lf what things you didn't quite get? maybe I can clarify?

mahalmar said:

They would only be alive tho as long as Melkor had his mind set on them

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And this bit could be a part of that "passing so much of himself into the earth and control of his creatures" he himself became lesser, and lesser, and could no longer shape-shifr, had power to confront even other created things much, on his own.

We know he passed so much of his evil and hatred into Middle-earth itself, Middle-earth (as it is) will never be free from his evil until it is renewed. Middle-earth itself was, in many respects, Melkor's "ring" as the One Ring is Sauron's "ring".

So as aule animated his few little things, it's possible Melkor animated some as well. But how many and how long could his thought stay on 'them all' at the end? He has serious limitations by then.

Most of his creatures are said to have been 'bred' or 'nurtured' in Angband. Yes, perhaps nasty Maiar inhabited some. We know he deceived many of them and they came along with him.

It's a bit of a tangled web.
Why? Because Tolkien intended it to be so.

Huorn said:

It's a bit of a tangled web.
Why? Because Tolkien intended it to be so.

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And for me that is also the beauty of Tolkien's works. They are like he himself said, the glimpse through the key-hole into the magnificent world beyond.

Huorn said:

he himself became lesser, and lesser, and could no longer shape-shifr, had power to confront even other created things much, on his own.

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Yes indeed. I think both Melkor and Melian are this case Tolkien made, of Ainur becoming this immersed in Ea and their bodily forms that in the end they became subject to the same rules and conditions applying to the Eldar.

I believe there was something about the fight between Melkor and Fingolfin I read somewhere where the question was, if it was a close fight. I think some people do forget that at this point Melkor was already that much invested in Arda and bound to his terrible (earthly) body, that from a physical point of view, the battle between the two was almost as if one between two Eldar, Melkor obviously being still superior to Fingolfin in spirit and power.