Doom and Fate

the elves are doomed due to dubious leadership perhaps?

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Say what? Not to completely derail the thread, but I'm really unsure about what you mean here. Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan- these are dubious leaders? The only Elvish leader I can think of whom I don't flat out admire is Thranduil, and yet he was able to perservere in Mirkwood despite the continuous looming evil of Dol Guldur. Feanor had his faults, but dubious leadership? Please explain what you mean. (I am legitimately interested in your comment, so perhaps you could start a thread about it in The Hall Of Fire, so that it doesn't completely lead this thread into the dark realm of Off-Topic.)

Originally posted by Niniel
I don't think that anything that is preknown is predetermined. Many gods don't exist in the normal human time-frame, that is, for them eternity and one moment are the same. Do in the same moment they can see everything that will happen, but not necessarily because they are the cause of it, but because they can see that it will happen as a result of men's actions. I can't really explain this but I hope you see what I mean.

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Letsmake this in a real world instance for a second.

God knew i was going to post this, if he forenew it than their is no way for me to stop it theirfore it was predetermined theirfore if theirs foreknowledge their is predetermination.

Let me try to explain what Niniel was trying to say. Someone once it explained it to me this way, and I'll use the God of Christianity for example because I am a Christian.

Imagine a line. To God, human time is a line, kinda one-dimensional because we are forever going in one direction and we can't stop time or step away from it. God exists in the space around this line, so He can see both the beginning, the end, and all that lies between. Even though certain events are in the past for us and others are in our future, it is neither for Him because to Him, it is the present. He knows what future events are going to happen because it has already happened or is happening, from His point of view. The events may be seen by us as preknown, but that is because we are only at one point on this line. So you see, things would not be predestined, because the line has already been constructed and the choices already made by each person. God is simply able to examine the result of these choices.

I have tried to explain it the best I can, but if you're confused, just ask away.

Thank you Goldmare! That was exactly what I wanted to explain, but I didn't know how. This makes my point a lot clearer. BTW, I think we are drifting away from the subject a little bit, since the question was how Tolkien used fate and doom.

Originally posted by goldmare
Imagine a line. To God, human time is a line, kinda one-dimensional because we are forever going in one direction and we can't stop time or step away from it. God exists in the space around this line, so He can see both the beginning, the end, and all that lies between. Even though certain events are in the past for us and others are in our future, it is neither for Him because to Him, it is the present. He knows what future events are going to happen because it has already happened or is happening, from His point of view. The events may be seen by us as preknown, but that is because we are only at one point on this line. So you see, things would not be predestined, because the line has already been constructed and the choices already made by each person. God is simply able to examine the result of these choices.

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Boy! Don't I like philosophy!

But, let me correct you a bit. What you were saying , as quoted above, can be completely true IF and ONLY IF you mean the existance, hence the position of the phisical body of a human in a particular moment on the time-line.

B U T...

The interesting about MAN and the ONLY thing that makes US different from animals is OUR MIND and one should take into consideration that our mind CAN GET AWAY FROM THE TIME-LINE and it actually does it all the time.

B E C A U S E

We have a sense of past, present and future, PRECISELY thanks of our only important part - our mind, which IS perfectly ABLE to "exist" in any point/section of the time line.
That's why we can remember, we perceive what is going on at present and dream or foresee future events.

Now, all this could be a subject to a very long discussion (which I wouldn't mind ) but I only wished to show that in this specific example brought up here before, we - MEN are equal to God from the point of view of the perception of past, present and future.

And finally, I'd say, that if I am to draw a conclusion, I can not accept this theory (Niniel's - Sorry! ) as suitable to explain why Elves feel doomed and Men consider their fate (which is definitely not always bad)!

Because, I am thinking like this: If there are prophecies, it means that things are predetermined, hence - preknown.
So, observing that everybody - Elves and Men, and even Gods and other spirits (half-gods ) are quite desturbed by those prophecies, then WHO, for God's sake, has spoken them?! Because he must be the ONLY possible one who would know it all ..... because he must be the one who has predetermined everything..... And this leads to Eru, doesn't it?

Or.....?

I think Ilúvatar predestined all things to happen.

Any way i think God (of the christians for I am one, if you could tell by the sig) Binds himself to our time. NO im not limiting GOd im saying that God purposfully knows whats going to happen, and everything but he sees know as know and past as past and future as future.

So compare Ilúvatar to God, if tolkien believed in the calvinistic theory of Predestination (which their is scriptural evidence for) then he may of set Eru to an extent to see Predestined the world.

Any way even your about the line makes me think that its still going to happen, it is Predestined to happen, for it can not be changed.

Boy, this is a real head-scratcher! I'm getting confused here, but let me try to answer one question at a time.

Lhunithiliel, I understand what you mean but I think our perception and God's perception of time are more than a little different. Yes, our minds can exist (although I'm not quite sure if that's the right word) in another time, hence, as you say, we can remember stuff and dream the future. But our bodies cannot, and lets face it, most of the time our minds are in the present, focused on the now. And I think I can be safe in saying that our minds can be in only one time at a time(no pun intended). But to God, everything that happens is in the present to Him. The future and the past, to us, are His present. Time does not rule Him as it does us, and because He is outside of time He can see everything that we are going to do as well as everything that we did. I know its hard to imagine a place that has no time, but that is the state in which God lives.

And Faila, let me try to explain it again, although it was confusing enough the first time and I'm not sure I'll say it much better this time. To God, we have already made the choices of the future, because He has been able to examine our future as he sees it. Our decisions haven't been decided by Him (except in the fact that He gave us certain personalities, maybe). It's not as if we can see what choices we're going to make and their consequences, or we'd all go back and make different decisions if we could; no, we're just making these choices as they come to us, blindly, not able to see what the future holds. He may already know what decisions we're going to make, but this doesn't mean that He's forcing us to make a certain decision. We would have made these decisions anyway, because we don't know the future. He is just able to see this before we do.

But still if he forknows it than it is going to happen thier is no way to change what will happen.

I hold this view on middle earth as well.

The only reason He foreknows a certain thing is because to Him we have already decided that thing. We may not know it, but that is the decision we will make in the future and would have made because we don't know about it beforehand. We don't know what decision we will make until we come to it, but in God's perspective, He has already seen us make that decision and just because He knows that ahead of our time doesn't mean that we would have made a different decision or will make one. You could say that He's just a little bit ahead of us on the time line, and that's why He knows what we will do, not because He has predestined it.

But your statement that he knows that it is going to happen and so there's no way for us to stop it doesn't really make sense, because WE don't know what the future holds and therefore we wouldn't know enough to stop it.

I still have what to say
But it will be later tonight.

This discussion is NOT over!

It's so interesting to let it stop . Right?

Originally posted by goldmare
Boy, this is a real head-scratcher!

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Yes I agree! But it makes it more exciting, doesn't it!

Lhunithiliel, I understand what you mean but I think our perception and God's perception of time are more than a little different. Yes, our minds can exist (although I'm not quite sure if that's the right word) in another time, hence, as you say, we can remember stuff and dream the future. But our bodies cannot,

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Now, if we are to discuss matters of the spirit and mind we shall have to definitely forget about any bodies. The body is only a shell, isn't it. It passes away and is destroyed and it is not of much importance.

...most of the time our minds are in the present, focused on the now. And I think I can be safe in saying that our minds can be in only one time at a time(no pun intended).

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I can't say how much more or less our minds are focused on a particular part of the "time-line". I wouldn't be sure to say that it's more the present than the past or the future. Besides, it is a common state of the mind to attend a present activity and at the same time "be" in the past (=memories) or in the future (=planning, predicting, guessing, dreaming...)

But to God, everything that happens is in the present to Him. The future and the past, to us, are His present. Time does not rule Him as it does us, and because He is outside of time He can see everything that we are going to do as well as everything that we did. I know its hard to imagine a place that has no time, but that is the state in which God lives.

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I doubt that there might be a place whith no time running. Time is one of the existing universal dimensions (together with the normally known 3 dimensions for describing a place). It however is very possible that time might run differently in different environments. Therefore the environment of God must be very much different than ours. But it is not an unusual thing....EVEN in our environment! Think about a tree. It is a living being just as we are. However, time might seem different from a tree's point of view - different from ours, of course.
The same concerns the Elves and Men - they lived in the same environment and yet they had a different understanding of time.

To God, we have already made the choices of the future, because He has been able to examine our future as he sees it. Our decisions haven't been decided by Him (except in the fact that He gave us certain personalities, maybe).

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With this I can agree.

It's not as if we can see what choices we're going to make and their consequences, or we'd all go back and make different decisions if we could; no, we're just making these choices as they come to us, blindly, not able to see what the future holds.

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With this I DEFINITELY CAN'T agree!!!!! A person acts, acted and will act ALWAYS on the grounds of her/his individuality (how individuality is formed is quite a large subject we could also speak of ). I mean that "blind" behaviour is not possible. One always does things according to some pricpiples s/he has. One has to only study her/him-self and if succeeds in analysing her/his own self, s/he will be able to understand every single move s/he has made, is making and will make. The other day I heard a very wise thing: "Go to the mirror and look in it! There you will see your past, your present and your future IF you know HOW to look upon the thing in the mirror" Isn't it a great thought!!!!!

Oh. Sorry, I didn't mean to present it quite like that. I agree completely with you in what you just said. What I was trying to illustrate in that quote is that we can't see all of the decisions we might have to make, nor what the consequences of those decisions might be. You're right, though; I guess I shouldn't have put it quite like that.

Hey, why..... The discussion is good and it's good to continue it!
Be free to post the way you feel it and we'll discuss it and then I post and then others (hopefully) .....

But we have been carried away a little. Away from the main topic, I mean.
What do you think? Our contemplations - how can they refer to elves' doom and men's fate?

And finally, whatever has been said here so far,it is still not clear whether Tolkien had something different in mind when using those combinations of words.

Late comer...

Oh, I thrive on this sort of thread... it is a pity it took me so long to find it. I will comment on some of the subjects raised so far:

Fate/Doom (the meaning of the words): You seem to think that fate is more positive than doom. In myth, fate is something completely beyond the control of any power (including the gods!). Doom, on the other hand, is usually pronounced by some power. In our favorite tales, an example would be Túrin, whose doom (really, curse) was set by Morgoth, because of Húrin's defiance. The main difference between doom and fate regarding our present thread would be that the Doom of Elves was pronounced by the only Irresistible Power, Eru Ilúvatar, and that he refrained from pronouncing the Doom of Men (although he is aware of it, being omnisicient). The difference is one of announcement, not of kind. Ilúvatar, of course, knows the fate of everything. Which leads us to...

Predestination : I agree with Goldmare's exposition regarding the Christian God (and I think the Christian God is Eru, but we have a gargantuan thread on the LotR forum about it...). And this means I don't think that God's foreknowledge is binding on our free will. I will expand on this... after my lunch . It is the most interesting part of the discussion for me.

The Doom of Elves: We have to remember that this story is told from the viewpoint of the Elves, and not from an omniscient narrator. Tolkien had a strong "author's pride" about this, as can be seen from his Letters -- the fact that this is a myth/legendarium that is not anthropocentric. Therefore, many details about Men are left vague -- the First Fall is an example. No wonder the final fate of Men is unknown. Also, the Elves got their info from the Valar, who also had (from the beginning) little knowledge about men. Ilúvatar didn't show much of his master plan regarding men to the Valar, with the possible exception of Manwë and Mandos. But even if He did reveal something to them, they would not blabber about it. So that even in the First Age the Elves had a clear picture of their subsequent history (which does not mean they lacked free will!! This regards only 'big scale history', not individual destiny), but little clue about Men.

And now for lunch.

A loooong post...

Ok, having refreshed myself I can tackle the difficult topic of predestination... if you feel that this is off-topic, I'm sorry, let me know. I will here think about predestination as it happens on the real world, though I have reason to believe (see the thread 'Finding God in the LotR') that Eru and God are the same in Tolkien's mind, so the discussion is also applicable to Middle Earth. These seem to be the hypotheses voluntereed so far:

1) Full predestination -- nothing we can do will change what is destined for us, since it is engraven in God's intellect from the beginning of time. This view implies the Calvinist conclusion that the damned and the blessed are separated from the start, and nothing we do can change that. Actually, only God's intervention can change it. I believe faila believes in that.

2) No predestination -- Even if God knows what we will do, his knowledge is not binding at all on our free will, since it happens from 'outside' time. So that God 'sees' the future as we see the past, as something unchangeable, but what will build the future (just as what has built the past) is our free choices, unfettered by God's knowledge. This means that the blessed will be blessed because of their good works (refusal of sin, embracing of God), aided by God's Providence, but originating from their free will nonetheless. And the same applies to the damned. Goldmare apparently believes in that.

Please inform me if I have misrepresented any of your viewpoints. As I said before, I am more inclined to Goldmare's side, but the opinion as I have stated it is not precisely like mine. This is because Church doctrine (remember, I think Tolkien's Eru is fully compatible with Catholic doctrine. Also, I am a Catholic myself) refuses the theory that man can raise himself up to Blessedness without God's intervention -- grace. Good works without grace are not enough. This is an effect of the Fall.

So this is my third hypothesis (which I think is very much like the Catholic Church explanation of predestination):

There is Pre-destination, prior destination. We must keep in mind two facts: 1) God loves all men. In as much as He loves everyone, He wants everybody to be saved. But this word, 'wants', while an expression of God's will, describe his prior position, his 'default position', so to speak. After one sins, God's Justice (and keep in mind that His Justice and His Love are one and the same -- God is simplicity itself, He can not be divided into concepts) would deny salvation. And we all sinned in Adam. So as it stood before Christ, we were denied salvation, even though we were pre-destined to be saved. I will soon comment on the word pre-destination itself, and it's difference from simple destination. But let us continue. Christ's sacrifice, in an Act of Mercy, saved all. This is not offensive to God's Justice, since the creditor can forgive any or all of his debts -- it is the debtor who is bound to Justice, not the creditor. The second fact (2) is God's Providence, the government of the Universe. While it was ridiculed by Voltaire's Dr. Pangloss, the Christian position (and I do not keep myself to Catholicism here, I think all Christians would agree) is that Providence makes this the best of all possible worlds. That means, even the Evil in this world, though not created by God, can, by his Providence, result in Good. God deemed Ethical Freedom a greater good than Bliss, and Adam's fall was a result of that. So everything that followed, including the horrors of the last century, is laboring for the greater good of the Creation.

Pre-destination, prior destination, then, is in God, not in man. He pre-destined the human race to be His Children, to glory in his Presence, but we fell. After this episode, even while our destination (the result of our own free acts) had changed, God was saving us by Christ, so that his pre-destination prevailed over our mistakes. And through God's Providence, the government of the Universe, our acts and good works are heard and God arranges them to insure the greater good. So that we may, by prayer and works, change the fate of others, and perhaps even ourselves.

Bottomline: we are all potentially saved. The only thing that is lacking is for us to acknowledge Christ as Our Savior, and it is done. In that sense, we are predestined, and nothing we can do will move us further to the goal, the debt is already paid. BUT, our acts and prayers have an effect on whether ourselves (and others, most especially others) acknowledge God's Gift and are therefore effectively saved.

Was that too confusing? What do you think about it? I'd like to hear your input if I have not bored you to death... and if you feel this thread is a proper vehicle.

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
the DOOM of Elves

and

the FATE of Men

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Nay, not so!

Just in case my above statement doesn't fully satisfy everyone, let me try to explain it - a little - better:

I don't think this can be generalized in a way that we could say Tolkien used "doom" mainly for the "final fate" of Elves whereas he used "fate" for that of Men.

In the - IMO - most revealing Essay about the fate of Elves and Men, the "Athrabeth"*, Tolkien uses both terms for Eldar and Edain. I fail to see a "pattern" which would justify the association of "doom" with the Elves and "fate" with men.

Regarding the "predestination" vs. "free will" issue, in the context of the "final fate" of Elves and Men, said Essay - to me - represents some form of a struggle: Tolkien's (catholic) beliefs vs. Tolkien's educated intellect. Eternal life of body and soul, harmony of body and soul, mortal body and immortal soul, re-incarnation; Tolkien presents it all in this "debate" and yet, where the logic fails he has to call upon estel - the "trust" in Eru as the final word...

----
*incl. the Notes and together with "Laws and Customs..."

Well, Eriol, there's one difference between my view and how you described it, and it mostly stems from the differences in our faiths. I am not a Catholic, but I am a Christian, and I don't believe that our good works determine our fate. They may determine what certain aspects of our lives are going to be, but I do not believe they affect our final destination. The only thing that affects that is our decision whether or not to accept Jesus' gift of salvation.

I just wanted to clear that up. By the way, I have enjoyed your input and I hope you and others continue to address this issue. It's been very interesting!

I have too enjoyed the opinions and I'm glad I have the opportunity of talking to and learning from such high-intelligent people!

goldmare, eriol...you speak of God in such a way as if you know him extremely well. You comment on his decisions, his views, his visions and his expectations concerning mankind... You comment on his abilities to control or not Men's destinies....

I, being almost ignorant in these matters, wonder how you know all about him?

Because, I see Tolkien's Illuvatar as a character representin the superior god of ANY religion known to men in our " real" world, not only the Christian one. I cannot claim much knowledge in religios matters, but from what I have read here and there, all the superior gods in any religion have similar capabilities and powers, which I then see as if "projected" onto the character of Eru.
Therefore, if I could understand better what makes YOU know your god so well, perhaps I would be able to understand the issue of doom and fate, pre-determined and controlled by Illuvatar in Tolkien's world....
*****
Professor Walter,
As I had said it at the beginning of this thread, I only got the impression of Tolkein using those combinations... I am very far from knowing Tolkien well. I still have to read a lot and learn a lot...
I just want to figure those things out.
***
The thing is that I personally, think a lot of our destiny/fate/doom in the real world - does it exist?

Now, based on my belief that art, any art, reveals men's mind and men's understanding of the surrounding world, I think Tolkien actually said something very important by giving the story of the difference between the fate/doom/destiny of Men and Elves.
I guess, that IF I understand his point of view, this will help me find the answer of my question....

So, tell me what you think on these things....
What does your religion say?

"Your" religion..... I shouldn't say so....I,m Christian myself, although Orthodox....but I have been raised in a society and in years when religion was prohibited, therefore I don't have much understanding....

Besides, I have a rather.......let's say "unconventional" attitude towards the story of Christ... But this is another story...

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
*****
Professor Walter,
As I had said it at the beginning of this thread, I only got the impression of Tolkein using those combinations... I am very far from knowing Tolkien well. I still have to read a lot and learn a lot...
I just want to figure those things out.
***
The thing is that I personally, think a lot of our destiny/fate/doom in the real world - does it exist?

Now, based on my belief that art, any art, reveals men's mind and men's understanding of the surrounding world, I think Tolkien actually said something very important by giving the story of the difference between the fate/doom/destiny of Men and Elves.
I guess, that IF I understand his point of view, this will help me find the answer of my question....

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Professor????

If you're interested in Tolkien's ideas about that you really should read - or better study - the "Athrabeth..."

And if you really want an answer to "the great question of life": well, the answer - as many might already know - is "42".... just .... what exactly "the great question of life" is will take me a little longer to figure out

Posted by Goldmare:

They may determine what certain aspects of our lives are going to be, but I do not believe they affect our final destination. The only thing that affects that is our decision whether or not to accept Jesus' gift of salvation.

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This is what I said on the subject:

Bottomline: we are all potentially saved. The only thing that is lacking is for us to acknowledge Christ as Our Savior, and it is done. In that sense, we are predestined, and nothing we can do will move us further to the goal, the debt is already paid. BUT, our acts and prayers have an effect on whether ourselves (and others, most especially others) acknowledge God's Gift and are therefore effectively saved.

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Not so different, I think... The last sentence could be the point of disagreement, and if so I am at fault. I could express it in this way: good works are... well, good! And they therefore please God (who is Goodness). So they help us and our neighbors to see God and, seeing Him, acknowledge Jesus. Would you agree with that?

Lhun, you are surely right, Tolkien's myth can give us some profound insights about life and death. I find his take on the fate of the Children of Ilúvatar quite enligthening. But first I must address this:

goldmare, eriol...you speak of God in such a way as if you know him extremely well. You comment on his decisions, his views, his visions and his expectations concerning mankind... You comment on his abilities to control or not Men's destinies...

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I don't like to litter a thread with the "IMO's", and so I am again at fault. Of course I am not God's personal counsellor . Thinking about the Absolute (even before I became a Christian) is intoxicating, though.

By the way, I think the question:

.... what exactly "the great question of life" is

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is the great question of life

Most of the ideas I wrote are in my (humble) opinion true, as far as my mind can see it, but they are nothing more than an opinion. These things are not liable to be rationally proven, but I don't think this is such a defect. Most things are not, this is the pitfall in which the Cynics fell, to think that only what is liable to be rationally proven is correct. We could discuss the roots of our intellect and how does it 'see' truth, but it would be (way) off-topic, wouldn't it? I'm not sure... After all the relationship between myth and truth is one of the main themes of Tolkien's works.

You asked me how I know 'so much' about God. I knew a little by thinking, by philosophy. I found even this little astounding (as I said, it is intoxicating). But the 'bulk', of course, is faith. I think my own 'religious trajectory' was unusual in that I was led from thinking to faith, and most people I know are led from faith to thinking about it. I can say that my faith is grounded in my thinking... Very complicated, and I'd love to tell you more about it if you want. I'd like to know about your 'unconventional' attitude as well. I still don't know 'all' about Him, as you said, but I am learning... but the full answers will have to wait until the End.

After talking about God, religion, the mind, etc., I can turn to Elves and Men... I always found it intriguing that Tolkien wrote a myth in which death would be natural for men. This is (in my opinion!) his main departure from Catholic theology, which believes that 'the wages of sin is death', i.e. death is not natural to men but was self-inflicted by his sinning. But the idea that 'Men are guests', that they are not of this world, is wide-reaching. The implication, I think, is that somewhere else men are native.

Your remarks about Art are also interesting in that in some letters Tolkien said that the Elves are in his myths to represent Art... pure Art, unfettered by the desire for power and human limitations. Now, they fell short of this description now and then... but I still think it interesting. As I said above, I don't think Tolkien pictured the Elves without (or with a lessened) free will as regards the shaping of their fate. They simply had more info and less of a 'rebellious' spirit, and this could be explained by their being 'natives' in Arda, part of the World, bound to it. They find 'happiness' (and the definition of 'happiness' is very dependent on your idea of God!) easily in Arda, at first, but they are 'fading' with the world, as they are not truly immortal (but only live as long as the world lives). One very important aspect of these speculations is that Arda, the World (really, the created Universe), is not all there is. Elves are bound to it, and age (weary) at the same rate. Men are not, so they weary quickly. But from the viewpoint of Man, the great question (with due respect for Walter) regards their ultimate cause, why are they here? What is Eru's plan? This he has not revealed, and so Men are said to be 'freer', in as much as the plan for the Elves is explicit -- to live in Valinor until the end of the world, and share the delight of Arda with the Powers. (Even so they can refuse it and 'fade' in Middle Earth, the 'fairies' of later stories were in Tolkien's mind faded Elves). But as they are both Children of Ilúvatar, He has some plan for Men as well. It is only unknown to them (and therefore to us...).

I wrote too much. I'd like to hear from you all.