Dunlendings vs Southerners vs Rohirrim

[pgt]

Dunlendings vs Southerners vs Rohirrim

I've generally seem to read a presumption that Saruman's 'men' or those he cross bred or whatever were 'Dunlendings'. To the contrary I see little to support this broad presumption and believe the truth is not so simple.

A) Saruman entered into an alliance of sort w/ the Dunlendings - that would suggest a degree of autonomy and self-governance on teh part of the Dunlendings - while they did Saruman's bidding by attacking Rohan - otherwise it suggests they did their own thing independent or Saruman.

B) Saruman's right hand 'man' was not a Dunlending - but from Rohan no?

C) The 'Southerners' in Bree were civilized enough to speak a common language, use coinage and such to secure a room for the night -they were presumably not 'wild'. Nor were they, w/ one exception', specifically described as orc like or goblin like. I've always taken them to be neither Rohirrim specifically nor Dunlendings but to be generic 'men' that came from teh general area of Dunland or possibly the area around Isengard or the East most borders w/ Rohan...? The problem of that general area drove them north looking for greener pastures and of course one of Saruman's lackeys joined troop.

Which men did Saruman call upon in his enterprising ways? I don't know - perhaps some combination of general inhabitants of the area that likely included Dunlendings and possibly even Rohirrim or other men not aligned w/ either...?

 

[Snaga]

pgt, I didn't get the same impression myself, and it would be interesting to see specific quotes/references to see what lead you to those conclusions.

A) Why do you see it as an 'alliance'? Saruman is said to have told them that the Rohirrim are not very nice, and reminded them of ancient grievances. But exactly how they related to Isengard isnt made clear.

B) Grima was from Rohan. He was Saruman's spy - but so was the southerner at Bree. We don't know how trusted Grima was. He doesn't seem to be his 'right hand man' so much as one despised servant amongst others.

C) The origin of the men who came up the Greenway to Bree isn't made clear, but only one was in Saruman's employ I believe.

But I suppose on your point about the men being used in the 'breeding programmes' not being specified, that is correct. The Dunlendings are only assumed to be involved, but they appear friendlier to him than others, so it is not surprising that people reach this conclusion.

 

[pgt]

pgt, I didn't get the same impression myself, and it would be interesting to see specific quotes/references to see what lead you to those conclusions.

How 'bout some quotes that refute it and say that there are only TWO indigenous human populations in teh vicinity of Isengard: Rohan and Dunlendings.

A) Why do you see it as an 'alliance'? Saruman is said to have told them that the Rohirrim are not very nice, and reminded them of ancient grievances. But exactly how they related to Isengard isnt made clear.

Precisely - he conned and cajoled them to do his bidding - he didn't order them as his subjects thus the implication that they have a degree of autonomy and self-governance.

B) Grima was from Rohan. He was Saruman's spy - but so was the southerner at Bree. We don't know how trusted Grima was. He doesn't seem to be his 'right hand man' so much as one despised servant amongst others.

Precisely. We have evidence of someone directly in Saruman's employ who was NOT of Dunland. If you wish to place some scale of 0 to 10 as to WTs 'trust' go for it - all I know was that he was by Sarumans' side thru the thick of the war and the exile up thru the Shire and Saruman trusted him enough to heap abuse upon him. How much trust? What does that have to do w/ the price of tea in China?

C) The origin of the men who came up the Greenway to Bree isn't made clear, but only one was in Saruman's employ I believe.

Some pretty good inferences can be made: When we are later introduced to the Rohirrim - they are described in a new and unique fashion w/ no reference whatsoever to the Southerners. We also know that the other Southerns by default are not all swarthy like the one stranger/spy amongst them - he is described w/ those attributes as being unique from the other Southerns - he is unique.

My math says that it is not a simple neat clean world where everyone form the region must be either A) of Rohan or B) of Dunland. There can indeed be men living in the general area known as the 'South' relative to Bree and in the general region East of Rohan in the general region of Dunland and or Isengard. In fact, before Saruman got involved w/ Orcs and such - is it logical to presume he lived in that entire Isengard facility all by himself?

But I suppose on your point about the men being used in the 'breeding programmes' not being specified, that is correct. The Dunlendings are only assumed to be involved, but they appear friendlier to him than others, so it is not surprising that people reach this conclusion.

If we are basing such assumptions on 'friendliness' was not Edoras on friendly terms w/ Isengard before the Uruk era and during it's early development phases? In fact Edoras and Rohan may indeed have been MORE accessible to Isengard that the relatively wild and isolated folks of Dunland that were stirred up by Saruman just prior to open war w/ Rohan no?

Besides there are certain points that validate the existence of other non-alligned men in that region unless you have any quotes that refute this.

 

[Snaga]

How 'bout some quotes that refute it and say that there are only TWO indigenous human populations in teh vicinity of Isengard: Rohan and Dunlendings.

If you have a theory, back it up! I didn't say you were wrong, only that it never seemed that way to me.

Precisely - he conned and cajoled them to do his bidding - he didn't order them as his subjects thus the implication that they have a degree of autonomy and self-governance.

That was my impression too, but I only consider it to be an impression rather than a "known fact". The point being that Saruman likes to use his voice to persuade and daunt. But then Sauron is depicted as doing very similarly with the Easterlings and Southrons, who have their own kings. But describing it as "an alliance" may be misleading.

Precisely. We have evidence of someone directly in Saruman's employ who was NOT of Dunland. If you wish to place some scale of 0 to 10 as to WTs 'trust' go for it - all I know was that he was by Sarumans' side thru the thick of the war and the exile up thru the Shire and Saruman trusted him enough to heap abuse upon him. How much trust? What does that have to do w/ the price of tea in China?

Nothing directly, but I didn't agree with your characterisation of Grima.

My math says that it is not a simple neat clean world where everyone form the region must be either A) of Rohan or B) of Dunland. There can indeed be men living in the general area known as the 'South' relative to Bree and in the general region East of Rohan in the general region of Dunland and or Isengard. In fact, before Saruman got involved w/ Orcs and such - is it logical to presume he lived in that entire Isengard facility all by himself?

I don't follow your math. Assuming you meant west of Rohan not east... the lands south of Bree are described as desolate in a number of places. Where else do you think people lived? Saruman's coming to Isengard is described in the Appendices (and maybe UT as well - can't remember off-hand). It was described as abandoned by Gondor and empty. The Rohirrim did not go there. Hence Gondor's agreement to let Saruman take up residence.

If we are basing such assumptions on 'friendliness' was not Edoras on friendly terms w/ Isengard before the Uruk era and during it's early development phases? In fact Edoras and Rohan may indeed have been MORE accessible to Isengard that the relatively wild and isolated folks of Dunland that were stirred up by Saruman just prior to open war w/ Rohan no?

Besides there are certain points that validate the existence of other non-alligned men in that region unless you have any quotes that refute this.

The Rohirrim may not have recognised Saruman as an enemy until late in the day but there was little direct contact. The Rohirrim may have been accessible, but there isn't much sign that Saruman accessed them, nor is there much sign of their involvement in orc breeding programmes.

Until you post your "certain points" that validate the existence of other non-aligned men, how am I supposed to refute them?! You are welcome to believe your own theories, but right now I'm not planning to agree with you.

 

[pgt]

If you have a theory, back it up! I didn't say you were wrong, only that it never seemed that way to me.

That was my impression too, but I only consider it to be an impression rather than a "known fact". The point being that Saruman likes to use his voice to persuade and daunt. But then Sauron is depicted as doing very similarly with the Easterlings and Southrons, who have their own kings. But describing it as "an alliance" may be misleading.

If the word 'alliance' causes you consternation - feel free to substitute something that makes you feel better - it's simply not worth getting caught up in such symantic games over.

Nothing directly, but I didn't agree with your characterisation of Grima.

Oh? Which part? He wasn't Rohirrim? He wasn't w/ Saruman thru the thick of the war? He wasn't w/ Saruman thru his exile? Saruman didn't heap abuse upon him? Who did Saruman keep closer from the war to his final death?

I don't follow your math. Assuming you meant west of Rohan not east... the lands south of Bree are described as desolate in a number of places. Where else do you think people lived?

The area south of Bree is rediculously vast and JRRT directly contradicts himself in that Dunland is virtually on a direct 165 heading S of Bree. The Greenway leads virtually right to Dunland before trailing off and thru Minhiriath, Tharbad(abandoned), Enedwaith and pointing in the direct direction of Gondor's Anfalas(Langstrand).

I do not know where the generic 'Southerners' lived. I simply know that they were presented in unique terms from Rohirrim, Dunlendings or cross-bred goblin men like the Ruffians.

Yes, thanks I meant West of Rohan - we can presume they came from an area not specific to Dunland and likely West of Rohan if Theoden was running tight borders and Rohirrim being somewhat xenophobic.

We can presume the area south of Bree such as Eregion (Hollin) up to the Moria gate is desolate based on the FOTOR description.

Beyond that given that we know Dunland is populated - I'd only take the mention of areas south of Bree as being desolate as far as the Tharbad/Dunland latitude.

Saruman's coming to Isengard is described in the Appendices (and maybe UT as well - can't remember off-hand). It was described as abandoned by Gondor and empty. The Rohirrim did not go there. Hence Gondor's agreement to let Saruman take up residence.

Yes, and he was on friendly terms w/ Edoras from that time on...

The Rohirrim may not have recognised Saruman as an enemy until late in the day but there was little direct contact. The Rohirrim may have been accessible, but there isn't much sign that Saruman accessed them, nor is there much sign of their involvement in orc breeding programmes.

Nope - there is nothing to suggest either way - I merely point out that access existed and at least one notable Rohirrim was utterly corrupted to his ways. Beyond that...

Until you post your "certain points" that validate the existence of other non-aligned men, how am I supposed to refute them?! You are welcome to believe your own theories, but right now I'm not planning to agree with you.

I already did - to repeat...

The Southerners were described in unique terms. The one Southerner spy is an anomaly and not of that group - he merely joined up and is using them as cover or out of convenience. When we later meet the Rohirrim, the Dunlendings, the goblin men & later Ruffians they too are described in unique terms w/ NO references whatsoever to the previous Southerners we already met (save teh anomalous spy not actually of the Southerner group). Again, short of drawing a picture - all this points to the Southerners as being non-alligned w/ these convenient groups you insist upon. Really, this is all from the books.

On the other hand do you have anything to offer to validate your assumptions about the Southerns that says they are NOT their own indigenous group and must fit in one of the other existing groups?

 

[Snaga]

I don't see disagreement over the use of a word because it implies a meaning that is not intended as a semantic game. It is an attempt to clarify.

The bit about Grima I wasn't entirely happy with was your description of him as Saruman's "right hand man". That suggests a relationship of trust, which I do not see much sign of.

I agree only that we know the southerners at Bree were not "goblin-men". I don't see that you can conclude that they were not from Rohan or Dunland. When they are described, none of the Hobbits know of either of these peoples, and I don't recall any later reference to their origin. I will, if I get time, review UT for evidence relating to this, because I believe there may be something.

 

[aragil]

Bit of a rush for time here, so I haven't read every statement as thoroughly as I'd like.

Some points of interest:
In UT 'the squint-eyed southerner at Bree' is described as a Dunlending.

The fellow who tries to usurp the throne from Helm Hammerhand is described as being of mixed Rohirric/Dunlending descent, and as having dark hair (like Grima).

I'm pretty sure there is also discussion of the Dunlendings (called Hillmen) usurping the power in Rhudaur, right before it became aligned with Angmar.

Also, for a third 'race' in the region, look up anything you can find about Tharbad. This is the city on the Greyflood which connected Arnor and Gondor. It had a Numenorean garrison, but was (I believe) ethnically Dunnish and in any case abandoned in ~TA 2900.

A final interesting note of Saruman's 'breeding stock' is the early versions of Ugluk (the greatest of the Uruk-hai). In the first drafts he referred to Saruman as something like the Ulthwit, which would mean ~wizard in Old English/Rohirric. Were the Uruk-hai originally intended to be of Rohirric origin? Possibly.

 

[aragil]

Dunlendings vs Southerners vs Rohirrim

I've generally seem to read a presumption that Saruman's 'men' or those he cross bred or whatever were 'Dunlendings'. To the contrary I see little to support this broad presumption and believe the truth is not so simple.

Whoops! Guess I should have read more carefully before posting:

From UT, the Hunt for the Ring:
When the Black Riders were far across Enedwaith and drawing near at last to Tharbad, they had what was for them a great stroke of good fortune, but disastrous for Saruman, 16 and deadly perilous for Frodo.
Saruman had long taken an interest in the Shire – because Gandalf did, and be was suspicious of him; and because (again in secret imitation of Gandalf) he had taken to the "Halflings' leaf," and needed supplies, but in pride (having once scoffed at Gandalf's use of the weed) kept this as secret as he could. Latterly other motives were added. He liked to extend his power, especially into Gandalf's province, and he found that the money he could provide for the purchase of "leaf" was giving him power, and was corrupting some of the Hobbits, especially the Bracegirdles, who owned many plantations, and so also the Sackville-Bagginses. 17 But also he had begun to feel certain that in some way the Shire was connected wife the Ring in Gandalf's mind. Why this strong guard upon it? He therefore began to collect detailed information about the Shire, its chief persons and families, its roads, and other matters. For this he used Hobbits within the Shire, in the pay of the Bracegirdles and the Sackville-Bagginses, but his agents were Men, of Dunlendish origin. When Gandalf had refused to treat with him Saruman bad redoubled his efforts. The Rangers were suspicious, but did not actually refuse entry to the servants of Saruman – for Gandalf was not at liberty to warn them, and when he had gone off to Isengard Saruman was still recognised as an ally.
Some while ago one of Saruman's most trusted servants (yet a ruffianly fellow, an outlaw driven from Dunland, where many said that he had Orc-blood) had returned from the borders of the Shire, where he had been negotiating for the purpose of "leaf" and other supplies. Saruman was beginning to store Isengard against war. This man was now on his way back to continue the business, and to arrange for the transport of many goods before autumn failed. 18 He had orders also to get into the Shire if possible and learn if there had been any departures of persons well-known recently. He was well supplied with maps, lists of names, and notes concerning the Shire.
This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron's servants if he had been a true ally. The Witch-king also obtained much information, including some about the only name that interested him: Baggins. It was for this reason that Hobbiton was singled out as one of the points for immediate visit and enquiry.

 

[pgt]

The bit about Grima I wasn't entirely happy with was your description of him as Saruman's "right hand man". That suggests a relationship of trust, which I do not see much sign of.

Make of the expression "right hand man" what you will - HE and only HE was with Saruman thru the thick of the war and up to the end.

I agree only that we know the southerners at Bree were not "goblin-men". I don't see that you can conclude that they were not from Rohan or Dunland. When they are described, none of the Hobbits know of either of these peoples, and I don't recall any later reference to their origin. I will, if I get time, review UT for evidence relating to this, because I believe there may be something.

As I said before when we are later introduced to either the Rohirrim or the Dunlendings there is no reference to them being 'like the Southerns at Bree'. Yet in other cases where we encounter new folk that are similar or related to previous folk - there are often such references. Nor is there any indication that the Southerners are 'wild' hill men or speak a strange and ancient tongue of men. THey could be from either Rohan or Dunland but not necessarily Rohirrim or Dunlendings. Yes it's ambiguous but if they were either then when we are ultimately intro'd to the Dunlendings or Rohirrim that it woudl stand to reason there would be a reference to the previous Southerners.

My first thought is they are a 3rd indigenous group not of the other 2 but of the same general geographic area. If not that then pure Dunlendings w/o orc blood which itself doesnt' explain why they would have accepted an outcast orc-blooded Dunlending in their traveling company.

BTW why are they called Dunlendings and not Dunlanders?

Aragil, really appreciate your efforts in providing that passage - someday I have GOT to read UT etc... That's a keeper and much appreciated!