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For discussing episode 8, Shadow and Flame
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S02 E08: Shadow and Flame
- Thread starter Erestor Arcamen
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- rings of power
Halasían
A Retired Dúnedain Ranger Fishing Lake Evendim
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Alright, where to start... a mixed bag for me, which kind of sums up my thoughts on Rings of Power in general.
• The highlight of the Season are the scenes between Charles (Celebrimbor) and Charlie (Annatar/Sauron). I had doubts about the look of Celebrimbor, but he brought his A-game to the role. In this episode we see the torment and death of Celebrimbor and I loved it. I loved how it was written. I loved how it was acted. I'm hoping it sets up the orcs taking the impaled Celebrimbor and use it as a banner when they attack the elves. Sadly, as much as I like to think of these awesome scenarios in my head, I'm sure the shallowness of the writers will gloss over it and miss the opportunity like they seem to do. Questions over the lore changes aside however, Charles and Charlie made this their own. It’s the MVP of S2, just as Elrond/Durin was MVP of S1.
• Arondir is still kicking. I hope they do more with this character in later seasons. There is so much potential with that character and actor. Sadly, the shallowness of how he seemed to miraculously recover from his beatdown in Ep 7 isn't explained. Probably the use of the rings and elven healing power ala Elrond in the PJ movies, and such off-camera, but at this point I've come to accept this is how this show rolls.
• We check in on Numenor and shit remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Numenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Numenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andunie in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.
• Gandalf is revealed (yawn) which to me is the worst possible outcome for the two-season investment. The writers could of had a freer slate had he been Saruman, for there has to be a lot of backstory there when he was good and had traveled east. Probably a rights thing especially with War of the Rohirrim bringing Saruman in. It is what it is. There is a weird dynamic going on with Gandalf & the (not Blue because licensing) Dark Wizard. A bit meh on it all to be honest. I really didn’t want the Stranger to be Gandalf. But he is, so meh. With the departure of Nori and the Stoors, maybe the proto-hobbits exit stage right will be the end of the whole hobbit side-plot? For some reason I doubt it.
• Adar is betrayed by his own, proving that karma is a bitch named Sauron. Again, the loyalties seemed fickle as they are in Numenor, but there was some hinting that all was not well with Adar in the minds of the Uruks
• We see Imladris before it becomes settled. The show could benefit with a little CGI to multiply the crowds some... here in Imladris, and in Numenor.
• We see Narsil in Elendil’s hands for the first time. Again, such a moment was seemingly rushed and really didn’t have the sort of impact it should have, but it was still cool.
• We see the Balrog too. Honestly, that scene between king & son, and that final shot of the king going toe to toe with the balrog in the most dwarfish way possible was pretty good. The balrog was deliberately a call back to the movies, and it works in the present -tense with the scene. Problem is I'm not sure how you put the balrog back in the bottle for the rest of the seasons though. Now that he's been disturbed, will he not go on a rampage and trash Khazad-Dum? This tweak of the lore timeline is as problematic as the rings being forged out of sequence. Also, the callbacks to the movies are generally lame and shows the shallowness of the writers. Those done in the stranger/hobbit scenes do not work. At all.
• S2 is vastly improved on S1. There’s a lot of room for further improvement, though. For instance, given the changes to the lore on Dwarf rings, how on earth are any of them distributed further?
• Will Kemen become the Mouth of Sauron? Hope so since there are so many callbacks to the PJ fanfic, a beheading would be a fitting end to the guy.
• Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship between him & Isildur, I’m thinking he might become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed for betraying him.
I could make some hopeful predictions for S3, but I'm still stewing on them. After I rewatch S2 in binge format, I'll likely add/edit this... much of which I stole from Alqualisse with her review on facebook because I agreed with her assessments. I did clean up the language though. 😆
• The highlight of the Season are the scenes between Charles (Celebrimbor) and Charlie (Annatar/Sauron). I had doubts about the look of Celebrimbor, but he brought his A-game to the role. In this episode we see the torment and death of Celebrimbor and I loved it. I loved how it was written. I loved how it was acted. I'm hoping it sets up the orcs taking the impaled Celebrimbor and use it as a banner when they attack the elves. Sadly, as much as I like to think of these awesome scenarios in my head, I'm sure the shallowness of the writers will gloss over it and miss the opportunity like they seem to do. Questions over the lore changes aside however, Charles and Charlie made this their own. It’s the MVP of S2, just as Elrond/Durin was MVP of S1.
• Arondir is still kicking. I hope they do more with this character in later seasons. There is so much potential with that character and actor. Sadly, the shallowness of how he seemed to miraculously recover from his beatdown in Ep 7 isn't explained. Probably the use of the rings and elven healing power ala Elrond in the PJ movies, and such off-camera, but at this point I've come to accept this is how this show rolls.
• We check in on Numenor and shit remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Numenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Numenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andunie in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.
• Gandalf is revealed (yawn) which to me is the worst possible outcome for the two-season investment. The writers could of had a freer slate had he been Saruman, for there has to be a lot of backstory there when he was good and had traveled east. Probably a rights thing especially with War of the Rohirrim bringing Saruman in. It is what it is. There is a weird dynamic going on with Gandalf & the (not Blue because licensing) Dark Wizard. A bit meh on it all to be honest. I really didn’t want the Stranger to be Gandalf. But he is, so meh. With the departure of Nori and the Stoors, maybe the proto-hobbits exit stage right will be the end of the whole hobbit side-plot? For some reason I doubt it.
• Adar is betrayed by his own, proving that karma is a bitch named Sauron. Again, the loyalties seemed fickle as they are in Numenor, but there was some hinting that all was not well with Adar in the minds of the Uruks
• We see Imladris before it becomes settled. The show could benefit with a little CGI to multiply the crowds some... here in Imladris, and in Numenor.
• We see Narsil in Elendil’s hands for the first time. Again, such a moment was seemingly rushed and really didn’t have the sort of impact it should have, but it was still cool.
• We see the Balrog too. Honestly, that scene between king & son, and that final shot of the king going toe to toe with the balrog in the most dwarfish way possible was pretty good. The balrog was deliberately a call back to the movies, and it works in the present -tense with the scene. Problem is I'm not sure how you put the balrog back in the bottle for the rest of the seasons though. Now that he's been disturbed, will he not go on a rampage and trash Khazad-Dum? This tweak of the lore timeline is as problematic as the rings being forged out of sequence. Also, the callbacks to the movies are generally lame and shows the shallowness of the writers. Those done in the stranger/hobbit scenes do not work. At all.
• S2 is vastly improved on S1. There’s a lot of room for further improvement, though. For instance, given the changes to the lore on Dwarf rings, how on earth are any of them distributed further?
• Will Kemen become the Mouth of Sauron? Hope so since there are so many callbacks to the PJ fanfic, a beheading would be a fitting end to the guy.
• Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship between him & Isildur, I’m thinking he might become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed for betraying him.
I could make some hopeful predictions for S3, but I'm still stewing on them. After I rewatch S2 in binge format, I'll likely add/edit this... much of which I stole from Alqualisse with her review on facebook because I agreed with her assessments. I did clean up the language though. 😆
Rivendell_librarian
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An excellent summing up by Halasian of the last episode of season two so I'll just add a few thoughts.
I definitely agree about the death scene of Celebrimbor with Sauron doing the torturing and killing: not suitable for young children. Those key putdown lines of Celebrimbor may not be canon but I think they fit well with the series and the spirit of Tolkien. It was so convincing I was urging it to end so Celebrimbor's misery would end. Another downer for him was when he said earlier, seeing the ruin of Ost-in-Edhil that "I built this place". I'm not sure about Sauron's tears - surely the takeaway is there is no good in him. 10/10 for Charles Edwards for that scene.
Adar is betrayed by Glug: the orc with a wife and child back in Mordor. Was he always a secret follower of Sauron? When Glug later tells Sauron of their defeat at the hands of the well organised dwarves led by Narvi (crossbows not longbows of course), Sauron kills him. Let's hope his wife and child cope on the orc widow's allowance. Pity as Adar had huge screen presence but Mordor isn't big enough for both him and Sauron.
A few elf women and children escape through a dwarf-built secret tunnel with Galadriel leading them. I'm not sure why they didn't get out before the fighting started. This was a case where Amazon fell short of PJ's Helm's Deep with those scenes of sons being taken from their distressed mothers and younger children hugging their mothers in fear.. But the orcs know about the tunnel and Galadriel has to trade the nine rings for them being let go in safety.
After Adar has been killed in the same way Sauron was "killed" by Adar we get the climactic sword fight between Galadriel and Sauron. Sauron claims the nine rings but rather than give up her ring Nenya, Galadriel falls from a cliff (Luke Skywalker style) after saying she would never turn to the dark side despite Sauron's offer to bring order together to Middle Earth. Well they didn't actually say those words but that was the meaning of the scene.
Galadriel is healed by Gil-galad and Elrond in a safe elf haven that will become Rivendell. During the siege of Ost-in-Edhil Elrond had pleaded in vain for the orcs not to burn the Eregion archives saying they were more valuable than jewels or even blood. Good elf that Elrond - knows the value of books and documents: hence his commitment to make the Rivendell library the library of record for Middle Earth.
King Durin III uses a battering ram to break through to the huge seams of mithril but it has a fiery guardian with a fiery whip and the old king tries to sort it out with his axe: that's one way to inherit the throne.
The Stranger is finally named as Gandalf but I sure hope Tom Bombadil wasn't using tea bags in the mugs cos that was water he poured from his hedgehog shaped teapot. Nori leaves with the Stoors: that was a bit of a surprise. Earlier Nori had invoked pity - does this mean she will be the forbear of Bilbo and Frodo? I know some have called the hobbits a distraction but hobbits are important - in fact they're the most important people of Middle Earth so I'm hoping we see them migrate to Bree and The Shire.
Pharazon finds a reason to crack down on the faithful. Daughter Earien warns father Elendil. Elendil encourages Miriel to escape with him to the west but she refuses and gives him the sword Narsil which he draws Viggo style - a good connection to PJ given that Aragorn is the heir of Elendil. Was that smoke from funeral pyres behind Elendil as he rode away?
The awful Kemen has been sent by his dad to Pelargir to garrison it with Numenorean soldiers and have the locals chop down trees for the Numenorean navy Let's hope an Ent squashes him. (I couldn't help think of a Monty Python sketch). The elf remnant cheer Gil-galad when he raises his sword in defiance of Sauron and the orcs - maybe a downbeat Star Wars V ending rather than IV would have been better. So loose ends tied up with plenty of lead in to series 3. Will Celeborn turn up and find Galadriel and Elrond kissing again?
I definitely agree about the death scene of Celebrimbor with Sauron doing the torturing and killing: not suitable for young children. Those key putdown lines of Celebrimbor may not be canon but I think they fit well with the series and the spirit of Tolkien. It was so convincing I was urging it to end so Celebrimbor's misery would end. Another downer for him was when he said earlier, seeing the ruin of Ost-in-Edhil that "I built this place". I'm not sure about Sauron's tears - surely the takeaway is there is no good in him. 10/10 for Charles Edwards for that scene.
Adar is betrayed by Glug: the orc with a wife and child back in Mordor. Was he always a secret follower of Sauron? When Glug later tells Sauron of their defeat at the hands of the well organised dwarves led by Narvi (crossbows not longbows of course), Sauron kills him. Let's hope his wife and child cope on the orc widow's allowance. Pity as Adar had huge screen presence but Mordor isn't big enough for both him and Sauron.
A few elf women and children escape through a dwarf-built secret tunnel with Galadriel leading them. I'm not sure why they didn't get out before the fighting started. This was a case where Amazon fell short of PJ's Helm's Deep with those scenes of sons being taken from their distressed mothers and younger children hugging their mothers in fear.. But the orcs know about the tunnel and Galadriel has to trade the nine rings for them being let go in safety.
After Adar has been killed in the same way Sauron was "killed" by Adar we get the climactic sword fight between Galadriel and Sauron. Sauron claims the nine rings but rather than give up her ring Nenya, Galadriel falls from a cliff (Luke Skywalker style) after saying she would never turn to the dark side despite Sauron's offer to bring order together to Middle Earth. Well they didn't actually say those words but that was the meaning of the scene.
Galadriel is healed by Gil-galad and Elrond in a safe elf haven that will become Rivendell. During the siege of Ost-in-Edhil Elrond had pleaded in vain for the orcs not to burn the Eregion archives saying they were more valuable than jewels or even blood. Good elf that Elrond - knows the value of books and documents: hence his commitment to make the Rivendell library the library of record for Middle Earth.
King Durin III uses a battering ram to break through to the huge seams of mithril but it has a fiery guardian with a fiery whip and the old king tries to sort it out with his axe: that's one way to inherit the throne.
The Stranger is finally named as Gandalf but I sure hope Tom Bombadil wasn't using tea bags in the mugs cos that was water he poured from his hedgehog shaped teapot. Nori leaves with the Stoors: that was a bit of a surprise. Earlier Nori had invoked pity - does this mean she will be the forbear of Bilbo and Frodo? I know some have called the hobbits a distraction but hobbits are important - in fact they're the most important people of Middle Earth so I'm hoping we see them migrate to Bree and The Shire.
Pharazon finds a reason to crack down on the faithful. Daughter Earien warns father Elendil. Elendil encourages Miriel to escape with him to the west but she refuses and gives him the sword Narsil which he draws Viggo style - a good connection to PJ given that Aragorn is the heir of Elendil. Was that smoke from funeral pyres behind Elendil as he rode away?
The awful Kemen has been sent by his dad to Pelargir to garrison it with Numenorean soldiers and have the locals chop down trees for the Numenorean navy Let's hope an Ent squashes him. (I couldn't help think of a Monty Python sketch). The elf remnant cheer Gil-galad when he raises his sword in defiance of Sauron and the orcs - maybe a downbeat Star Wars V ending rather than IV would have been better. So loose ends tied up with plenty of lead in to series 3. Will Celeborn turn up and find Galadriel and Elrond kissing again?
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