Flood Myths

[Ancalagon]

I am intrigued why Tolkien did not include a flood myth, like The Epic of Gilgamesh in the history of the creation of Arda? Every civilization had one of some description, none more so than Christianity of which Tolkien was a stalwart, yet he failed to include such in his own creation!

Discuss.

For your own interest, if you have not had the opportunity to read through civilizations various flood references, please read the following: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

 

[YayGollum]

Numenor doesn't count, since it's mostly an Atlantis myth. Okay. Got that out of the way. How's about the re-shapings of Arda before anything besides Ainur existed? Who knows what horrible as well as rejected and capitalized Children might have existed, were genocided, and we never get told about, since that would make Eru and his minions look evil? And the tragic tale of Mel's defeat could count as a flood story, since they re-shaped Arda a bit, then, and everybody had to start over, either in Numenor or the mostly ignored portions of Middle-earth.

Oh. Argh. Whoops. You didn't ask people to come up with a flood story that Tolkien wrote about. You asked why he didn't do it at all. Sure, I'll try that, too. That The Silmarillion stuff was mostly just a hobby, not even close to what I would call an acceptable level of completedness. Mayhaps he had a flood type of story coming? None that we've heard of, as a matter of course. I wouldn't guess that he didn't do it because he just didn't feel like copying yet another mythological habit. How's about ---> Floods only happen when there are a crazily tiny number of desirables out of a large number of the other sort. Tolkien just included way too many good Christian type characters for him to go destroying the world, yet. Yay for making a nicer world than those other mythologies?

 

[Ancalagon]

Could you be suggesting that Tolkien disposed of an original race of the children of the fallen Ainur, whom he did'nt refer to as The Nephilim?

 

[YayGollum]

Yes. Or something along that line. Why else would Aule have been so secretive about the Dwarves? He seemed like a happy-proceed-lucky sort of guy about all of his other creations. Of course, these were alive, but the other Ainur had little but enthusiasm, when it came to thoughts on capitalized Children showing up, and Aule wasn't greedy or anything.

 

[The Tall Hobbit]

Numenor doesn't count, since it's mostly an Atlantis myth.

How about:

From The Book of Lost Tales Part 1:

Now because of the darkness Aule suaded Melko to build two towers to the North and South, for he purposed to set upon them mighty lamps one upon each. These did Aule himself fashion of gold and silver, and the pillars were raised by Melko and were very tall, and shone like pale blue crystal; and when Aule smote them with his hand they rang like metal. They sprang up through the lower air even to Ilwe and the stars, and Melko said they were of an imperishable substance of great strength that he had devised; and he lied, for he knew that they were of ice. That one of the North he named Ringil and of the South Helkar, and the lamps were made ready and set upon them, being filled with gathered light, silver to the North and golden to the South. This light had Manwe and Varda gathered lavishly from the sky, that the Gods might the better explore the regions of the world, and choose the fairest for their home. Now in that flaming light did they fare East and West, and East was a waste of tumbled lands and West great seas of darkness, for indeed they were gathered now upon those Twilit Isles and stood there gazing westward, when lo! the lamps to North and South flickered and fell, and as they fell the waters rose about the isles. Now these things they did not then understand, but it so happened that the blaze of those lights had melted the treacherous ice of the pillars of Melko, Ringil and Helkar, and great floods of water had poured from them into the Shadowy Seas. So great was their thaw that whereas those seas were at first of no great size but clear and warm, now were they black and wide and vapours lay upon them and deep shades, for the great cold rivers that poured into them. Thus were the mighty lamps unseated from on high and the clangour of their fall shook the stars, and some of their light was spilled again into the air, but much flowed upon the earth and made fires and deserts for its great volume ere it gathered into lakes and pools. Then was the time of first night and it was very long; but the Valar were sorely wroth at the treachery of Melko and were like to be whelmed in the shadowy seas that now arose and sucked about their feet, covering many of the islands in their waves.

From The Silmarillion Chapter 1:

In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.

World wide flooding and world wide fires at the same time.

 

[Ancalagon]

Tall Hobbit, I like the quote and see the possibility, however I don't believe it represents a flood myth in the classical sense, more akin to global warming and its effects on the polar ice-caps.

Where I envisage the classic flood myth coming into its own is that the God(s) use water in a cleansing fashion, specifically to destroy what he has created, namely us or at least a more corrupt, sinful us. Though I wonder at what period in history we could have been more corrupt and sinful as we are now!

The other aspect to the flood myth which is so prevalent is that of a chosen person who is instructed in the impending doom of the world and given the key to escaping the deluge. It is specific to most civilisations built upon a single incident in pre-history that has clearly permeated the mythology of each culture.

Again, I wonder why Tolkien didn't include one as it appears such a cornerstone in the beginnings of man.

 

[Elfarmari]

It's been a while since I read this, but in the long conversation between Finrod and Andreth it's hinted that Men had a Fall, resulting in some of them heading West. In this case, it seems that Eru separated the 'good' from the 'bad' without completely destroying the 'bad' (and leaving them the option of repenting and following later, which happens). In general, Eru has a more hands-off approach than the God or gods involved in the flood myths that I know of. Even during the creation of the world, he allows Melkor to twist the song. After bringing the Valar into being, he only directly acts when they mess up severely and get attacked by the very ones their supposed to be protecting. I agree that Numenor is mostly an Atlantis myth, but it's a flood myth as well. The evil people (the Numenoreans) are entirely destroyed along with their whole land, with only the good people escaping (Elendil and his followers, who had been forewarned and prepared in boats to escape the cataclysm). Isn't the whole Atlantis story something of a flood myth as well?

 

[jallan]

Tall Hobbit, I like the quote and see the possibility, however I don't believe it represents a flood myth in the classical sense, more akin to global warming and its effects on the polar ice-caps.

Where I envisage the classic flood myth coming into its own is that the God(s) use water in a cleansing fashion, specifically to destroy what he has created, namely us or at least a more corrupt, sinful us. Though I wonder at what period in history we could have been more corrupt and sinful as we are now!

The other aspect to the flood myth which is so prevalent is that of a chosen person who is instructed in the impending doom of the world and given the key to escaping the deluge. It is specific to most civilisations built upon a single incident in pre-history that has clearly permeated the mythology of each culture.

Again, I wonder why Tolkien didn't include one as it appears such a cornerstone in the beginnings of man.

It appears often, but not always as a cornerstone. Even in the Hebrew account, the J source has two versions of the primeval genealogy, both containing names that are almost identical but in reverse order. Then, in one version, there come three brothers, sons of Lamech, the ancestors of wandering folk: Jabel (= Abel?), father of wandering shepherds; Jubal, father of wandering musicains; and Tubal-Cain, father of wandering smiths. There is no flood at all here and the implication is that the sons of these three brothers are the fathers of those three types of humans as they existed in the days of the author.

Then, in the other version a flood story is inserted. Lamech is the father of Noah who is the father of three brothers: Shem/Sem, from whom descends the Sumerians and civilizations that can be conceived to have risen from Sumer; Ham, from whom descends Egypt and civilizations ruled by Egypt, including the Canaanites/Phoenicians; and Japhet, from whom descends the Indo-Europeans.

Tolkien was certainly not a believer in Biblical inerrancy or he would not have provided a chronology for his imagined history which is so much longer than pre-Abrahamic Biblical chronology.

He may have imagined the Biblical flood as just a local flood in Mesopotamia. He may have also imagined it to occur after the events of The Lord of the Rings. As he never spoke of it, who can tell?

Even the Greeks did not make their flood stories a universal cornerstone. They had three flood stories: the flood of Ogygos, the flood of Deucalion, and the flood of Dardanos and Iasion.

Tolkien also does not include a story of the origin of fire, or a bronze age, or a stone age.