Forsaken Inn

[Arthur_Vandelay]

I don't know why you are tossing around the word hate now. Hate doesn't need to have anything to do with bad feelings. I don't think anybody said anyone hates another poster. (Though I did post in another thread that I have come to dislike two posters - in the distant past too - because of their views combined with their way of forcing them.) Don't confuse dislike for hate.

Ok.

I'm not happy about Alcuin leaving either. He did leave because of being upset with these topics. For those of you who did not know it, he had actually been reading this forum for years - long before he registered, and spoke very highly of it.

But hasn't the forum hosted political/religious threads for years (albeit on an on-and-off basis)? And the most recent instalment has been quite civil, you must admit--certainly things have been no worse in there this time around than in other times. Like I said, if someone feels they must leave the Forum because a liberal POV has of late appeared to predominate--and no individual member has any control over that, except by keeping one's opinion to oneself, which one shouldn't have to do--well, what can we do?

 

[Confusticated]

Of the original three questions, one was answered but its follow up was not. The other two are still not answered. I really wonder if they have even been getting discussed all this time outside of the public eye? Or is each forum leader sort of just assuming that others are taking care of it and will post the answer? Or is it being hoped that the questions would be forgotten about by the members? (Before anyone bites my head off, bear in mind that all of the sort of things I just mentioned have happened more than once in this forum's past.)

It would be nice if there were an answer which makes this recent action seem reasonable, and its exact nature known. Though one wonders how much sense it makes to take an action before deciding why or exactly how it is taken.

Like I said, if someone feels they must leave the Forum because a liberal POV has of late appeared to predominate...

I don't believe that anyone has claimed to have left for that reason.

I do know that in Alcuin's case he didn't visit these topics until more recently. Would he have had a similar reaction two years ago when there were more conservative arguements? If you have a reason to believe so, I am not aware of it. I only mention this because he is no longer here to defend himself against what might be a claim that he was okay with these threads existing at TTF until they mostly went against his own opinions.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Dapence, webmaster of TTF, has decided that the topics of politics and religion are to be banned once and for all. Thus, any future thread that deals with these topics will not be permitted. Any thread created in the Forsaken Inn will first go to the 'moderation queue' to be looked over by the staff, to make sure that the above mentioned regulation is followed.

Some may be dissatisfied with this decision, but what we should all do together is not brood over ill feelings and simply move on.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Dapence, webmaster of TTF, has decided that the topics of politics and religion are to be banned once and for all. Thus, any future thread that deals with these topics will not be permitted. Any thread created in the Forsaken Inn will first go to the 'moderation queue' to be looked over by the staff, to make sure that the above mentioned regulation is followed.

Some may be dissatisfied with this decision, but what we should all do together is not brood over ill feelings and simply move on.

When was this decided, and why isn't he making the announcement himself? If true, you will lose some good people, and the forum itself will lose something unique and valuable.

My impression of the structure of the forum is that there are hardly any threads in the Tolkien sections anymore that allow for the level of discussions available in the non-Tolkien sections. This makes TTF unique.

I believe those of us posting heavily in the non-Tolkien areas have been keeping well within both the bounds of civility and within the rules set by TTF. So why this decision??? I feel betrayed. We followed the rules and you came down on us anyway.

Barley

 

[Ithrynluin]

Sorry Barliman, but this is the final decision taken by the webmaster on 05-21-2005, 06:51 AM. He didn't get round to posting it publicly, and since the membership was getting impatient for answers, I provided a summary of them in his stead.

If true, you will lose some good people, and the forum itself will lose something unique and valuable.

I believe we've lost good people when the ban was repeatedly put into place in the past and then annulled. Keep in mind that off-topic discussions are far from being forbidden, they are just being limited to everything outside of outright political or religious discussions.

Like I said, we ought to move on.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Sorry Barliman, but this is the final decision taken by the webmaster on 05-21-2005, 06:51 AM. He didn't get round to posting it publicly, and since the membership was getting impatient for answers, I provided a summary of them in his stead.

I believe we've lost good people when the ban was repeatedly put into place in the past and then annulled. Keep in mind that off-topic discussions are far from being forbidden, they are just being limited to everything outside of outright political or religious discussions.

Like I said, we ought to move on.

Like I said, we went by the rules — in good faith — and you came down on us anyway. I believe we are owed clarification of the reasoning behind this decision. I get the strong feeling that the decision was heavily influenced by conservative members who didn't like it that progressive voices were being heard at last. If I'm wrong, please tell me what's really going on. (And what's this about "the membership being impatient for answers"? Are you saying that each and every member of TTF was jumping up and down howling for answers?? If so, I was certainly not aware of it.)

EDIT: Now I understand that a thread on knife and gun control has been permitted! What's the deal here: religion and politics are off limits, but anything else provocative is in? The subject of gun control is highly political! How can that be discussed while avoiding the political and even the religious aspects of it? I get a strong whiff of somebody playing favorites or caving in to pressure here...

The webmaster owes us a personal and detailed explanation, not just a dust-off by one of his assistants.

Barley

 

[Arthur_Vandelay]

Like I said, we went by the rules — in good faith — and you came down on us anyway. I believe we are owed clarification of the reasoning behind this decision. I get the strong feeling that the decision was heavily influenced by conservative members who didn't like it that progressive voices were being heard at last. If I'm wrong, please tell me what's really going on. (And what's this about "the membership being impatient for answers"? Are you saying that each and every member of TTF was jumping up and down howling for answers?? If so, I was certainly not aware of it.)

EDIT: Now I understand that a thread on knife and gun control has been permitted! What's the deal here: religion and politics are off limits, but anything else provocative is in? The subject of gun control is highly political! How can that be discussed while avoiding the political and even the religious aspects of it? I get a strong whiff of somebody playing favorites or caving in to pressure here...

The webmaster owes us a personal and detailed explanation, not just a dust-off by one of his assistants.

While I don't think the Webmaster owes us an explanation--it is his site, after all, and he may do with it what he will--I believe such an explanation would be greatly appreciated by those members of TTF who are affected by the move, even if we are to "move on."

The thread on gun control canvasses an issue that is certainly no less heated and no less political that, say, abortion--so its appearance in the Forsaken Inn in the wake of a ban on religious and political threads is curious, to say the least. (And no, I'm not calling for that thread to be closed down--I just feel that it has no less potential to cause disharmony among TTF members than any other thread you might care to name.) What it suggests is, at least with respect to political threads, the ban is limited, not total. And therefore it begs the question: if political topics are now banned, how is the term "political" being defined? I think that any TTF member who submits a thread to the "moderation queue" should at least be equipped with this information beforehand.

 

[David Pence]

An explanation?

Fine.

This is THE TOLKIEN FORUM.

How's that?

I allowed these topics to exist on TTF as something of a courtesy, a bending of my will to what I thought was the will of the members. Now it's apparent that was a mistake. No other topics of discussion on this site have caused so much consternation, and the best way to deal with it is to ban the topics altogether. It doesn't really matter what the frequency that infighting occurs over these topics, the fact that the occur repeatedly is enough to cause me to make this decision.

Now, as I said in the forum above, I have setup a small site where you discuss these topics to your hearts content. You just can't discuss them here.

 

[Hammersmith]

Personally, I'd like to thank the webmaster and mods for providing this area to share the limited discussions that I'm sure we all enjoyed. I consider myself a conservative in most of the discussions here, Barley, and I certainly don't have a problem with listening to liberal viewpoints. It saddens me that we cannot continue them here, but who knows? Maybe someday we'll be given another chance. Perhaps someone will come forward who the webmaster would accept as a political threads moderator. Perhaps not. I'd just like to seize the opportunity to say thanks to everyone

 

[Confusticated]

I was shocked to see the weapons control thread too. Really made me wonder why it was allowed! Seems to have the potential to political to me, but with an IQ of 90 I could be missing something. Guess there is no clear line for something like this. Even "outright" could be argued over.

 

[Gothmog]

Mods comment

I was asked by HGLStrider if she could start the thread. It seemed to me an interesting question to get the personal views of members. This shows that I am not perfect However, I do listen to others and if I make a mistake I do what I can to correct it. The thread on weapon control is now closed and will be removed shortly.

Gothmog

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

...as I said in the forum above, I have setup a small site where you discuss these topics to your hearts content. You just can't discuss them here.

Where is this area? Are you saying that in this area, controversial subjects are allowed?

BTW there are other Tolkien sites — and you will surely say that I am free to visit them if I don't like your policies — that allow controversial subjects, and the sites are flourishing wonderfully. I don't see your problem with having them here: the members are free to avoid them — no one is forcing anyone to visit threads which are political or religious in nature.

Without an area for the discussion of controversial subjects, TTF will be a duller place indeed, if all you want is bland.

There are people here who want to discuss things a bit more challenging than talking about Balrogs' navels or the endless "what-if", "why not" and "how come" threads. You will be losing good people if you don't give them something substantial to chew on... I have made good friends here. I love this forum, and I have contributed my share to the Tolkien side of things, but without subjects of non-Tolkien controversy, it would offer me significantly less reason to spend as much time here as I do.

Barley

 

[Gothmog]

Where is this area? Are you saying that in this area, controversial subjects are allowed?

Check out This post by Webmaster. It contains the link.

 

[Confusticated]

You know Barliman, not everybody thinks the book discussion is of a lower level than the political and religious talk, and not everybody thinks it is dull. In fact some people came here, and are still here just because of them!

I believe I know why you hold this opinion, and few else do... at least to the same degree.

In fact I can't remember there ever being an active member of this site who felt the need to answer so many questions with "Why are things that way? Because that is how the author intended them." and such. I think its fair to say your view is far more simplistic than most other approaches seen at this JRRT discussion site, and for that reason the talk strikes you as more dull or of a lower level than it does for most.

As someone who has maybe started more JRRT discussions that anyone at this site, I am offended by it for my own sake, as I have asked a great number of never before asked questions (mostly regarding First Age material) that are still not answered. In some cases not one person answered, and in the cases where people did it is not so thoroughly as the repeat LotR questions about Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel, and Balrog wrings... or any other question where you do not often see a new idea pop up. And I am offended by it for all the other contributors' sakes.

Its real rich to see people complain about book discussions being tapped out who haven't come closeto reading all the published material on Middle-earth (or otherwise), but I guess its no surprise from those who don't believe posthumous work has much use or one who has little interest in Silmarillion. Though I am not sure you are claiming tapped out.

For every one who thinks TTF is lacking without the hot topics, there is apt to be someone who thinks it is better without.

I am glad a new site was set up for this. It was more than Webmaster needed to do, and I would feel more comfortable posting about hot topics there than here, though I doubt this applies to many.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Check out This post by Webmaster. It contains the link.

All is forgiven, Dave! Thank you for creating, Eru-like, our own personal Void, where we will abide in chains forever! I have become a duly registered charter member of Project Evil (rather a cynical choice of names, Dave), and invite all the TTF provocateurs, denizens and habituees of TTF's now-defunct political and religious threads to join with me and get that place smokin'!

Barley

 

[Ithrynluin]

Most of the Forsaken Inn threads have now been archived, and what remained (threads on literature, et cetera) was merged into Stuff and Bother.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Most of the Forsaken Inn threads have now been archived, and what remained (threads on literature, et cetera) was merged into Stuff and Bother.

How does one access archived material?

Barley

 

[Ithrynluin]

How does one access archived material?

Barley

By going to the Archives?

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

By going to the Archives?

Brilliant! (I knew that...)

BTW old thing, thank you for posting the URL of Project Evil at the entrance to the Forsaken Inn (now forsaken indeed)! Now: could you please take it one step further and make it an actual link? Thanks again,

Barley

EDIT: Wow — a further change — No more Forsaken Inn at all!!! The Forsaken Inn has been forsook! So — would you make a link out of the PE URL at the entrance to Stuff and Bother — thanks!

 

[Ithrynluin]

There, I've made a whole new clickable category for it under Flotsam and Jetsam.