George R. R. Martin says LOTR has Plotholes

Elthir · Sep 23, 2019

Well, I'll continue my unpopular opinion by adding (since it's been raised), that I wish Tolkien hadn't revised his original Foreword.

And especially a section posted here, I have come to think, is beneath the man. Sure it's well written, but basically it's a shot at Tolkien's critics; and as far as I remember, the revised Foreword is the only external* piece that Tolkien himself ever published, which undermines the very "game" he is so wonderfully engaged in with the First Edition Foreword, and elsewhere.

*in that it hails from Tolkien the writer, instead of Tolkien the translator.

Squint-eyed Southerner · Sep 23, 2019

IIRC, he said he regretted the original Foreword as "combining real with feigned history" -- or words to that effect; I have neither version with me.

Elthir · Sep 24, 2019

"This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel. Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the "machinery" of the Tale is a serious mistake." JRRT

I can't agree

And in any case, Tolkien as Translator remains outside of the Foreword, in his own published work.

Lych92 · Oct 27, 2019

Alcuin said:
Wholeheartedly agreed. Martin’s comments seem motivated by more than jealousy and a desire to sell more books. He’s no doubt an excellent writer, but nowhere near the equal of Tolkien, with whose worldview Martin appears to violently disagree. It looks as if this combination of jealousy, greed, and especially his differing outlook on life inform his denunciations of Tolkien.

Michael Moorcock, author of the Elric of Melniboné stories, is another whose worldview conflicts with Tolkien’s. He has also launched diatribes against Tolkien’s work, apparently for similar reasons.

I agree. Between incomplete works coming from Martin and Tolkien, the latter at least do it better!

Olorgando · Oct 27, 2019

Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even heard of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
Let the free-for-all rumble begin!

CirdanLinweilin · Oct 27, 2019

Olorgando said:
Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even heard of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
Let the free-for-all rumble begin!

Hopefully, ahaha, you'll like my High Fantasy!

CL

Halasían · Nov 3, 2019

CirdanLinweilin said:
Aragorn and Eomer literally led mop-up wars.

See, no plot-hole.

CL

Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.

For all you who were able to actually read any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.

CirdanLinweilin · Nov 3, 2019

Halasían said:
Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.

For all you who were able to actually read any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.

I'm not going to even try - It's not my on my fantasy wavelength.

CL

ArwenStar · Nov 4, 2019

I have one of his (got it before I read LoTR) and when I got it sounded great, but now I can’t even pick it up because it is emitting bad, anti-Tolkien vibes. Maybe I’ll get some gloves and throw it in a bin. And it takes up too much space on my overfull bookshelves.

H0bb1t4 · Apr 20, 2024

Martin may have a point yet I like so many other fans of A Song of Ice and Fire have too long been waiting for Winds of Winter...which he hasn't even given any updates on...

Deimos · Apr 20, 2024

Martin's "magnum opus" (such as it is) can be described as a multivolume work featuring [ad tedium] that soul destroying triad libido sentiendi, libido sciendi, libido dominandi.
An existence where truth, goodness and beauty are relative; a world ultimately without hope.
I found it both tiresome and depressing.

Tyelkormo the Fair · Apr 20, 2024

At least it has a plot.

Alice · Apr 26, 2024

The only plothole I see is that nazgul are useless. Though maybe there is an explanation even for that.
I find it disrespectful to look for other 'plotholes' in a such great book

Ent · Apr 26, 2024

"In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit."

Wouldn't that be a "plot" hole?

Tyelkormo the Fair · Apr 26, 2024

Ent said:
"In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit."

Wouldn't that be a "plot" hole?

Martin didn't know what he was "Tolkien" about.😔

Eljorahir · Apr 26, 2024

Martin doesn't mention plot holes in this interview. Challenged (with a question) to find something wrong with LOTRs he says something else that might offend the Tolkien Fandom (maybe it's sacrilegious to even entertain such a question?). Otherwise, he seems to speak quite adoringly about LOTRs.

Radaghast · Jun 12, 2024

The silliest thing he says, imho, is that "Gandalf should have stayed dead." If so, it would be a different book 🙄

Olorgando · Jun 12, 2024

Radaghast said:
The silliest thing he says, imho, is that "Gandalf should have stayed dead." If so, it would be a different book 🙄

Right, but it's OK for Sauron to have his bodily form destroyed twice, but come back? 🤨 Geooooorge - just finish your last Ice&Fire book.

Radaghast · Jun 12, 2024

Olorgando said:
Right, but it's OK for Sauron to have his bodily form destroyed twice, but come back? 🤨 Geooooorge - just finish your last Ice&Fire book.

I'll be glad if he finishes the supposedly penultimate book at this point.

Olorgando · Jun 12, 2024

Radaghast said:
I'll be glad if he finished the supposedly penultimate book at this point.

Oh, so he still has two Unfinished Tales in his saga? Now that's what I'd call a major plothole!

George R. R. Martin says LOTR has Plotholes

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