George R. R. Martin says LOTR has Plotholes

[Elthir]

Well, I'll continue my unpopular opinion by adding (since it's been raised), that I wish Tolkien hadn't revised his original Foreword.

And especially a section posted here, I have come to think, is beneath the man. Sure it's well written, but basically it's a shot at Tolkien's critics; and as far as I remember, the revised Foreword is the only external* piece that Tolkien himself ever published, which undermines the very "game" he is so wonderfully engaged in with the First Edition Foreword, and elsewhere.

*in that it hails from Tolkien the writer, instead of Tolkien the translator.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

IIRC, he said he regretted the original Foreword as "combining real with feigned history" -- or words to that effect; I have neither version with me.

 

[Elthir]

"This Foreword I should wish very much in any case to cancel. Confusing (as it does) real personal matters with the "machinery" of the Tale is a serious mistake." JRRT

I can't agree

And in any case, Tolkien as Translator remains outside of the Foreword, in his own published work.

 

[Lych92]

Wholeheartedly agreed. Martin’s comments seem motivated by more than jealousy and a desire to sell more books. He’s no doubt an excellent writer, but nowhere near the equal of Tolkien, with whose worldview Martin appears to violently disagree. It looks as if this combination of jealousy, greed, and especially his differing outlook on life inform his denunciations of Tolkien.

Michael Moorcock, author of the Elric of Melniboné stories, is another whose worldview conflicts with Tolkien’s. He has also launched diatribes against Tolkien’s work, apparently for similar reasons.

I agree. Between incomplete works coming from Martin and Tolkien, the latter at least do it better!

 

[Olorgando]

Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even heard of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
Let the free-for-all rumble begin!

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Fantasy literature (more widely, The Fantastic, which includes science fiction, horror - Frank and Drac, fables and whatnot) has developed in a similar fashion as pop / rock music.
I have an interesting book calling itself a "picture book", which is just a huge collection of interesting and / or trivial information shown visually.
It's the German translation of a 2009 book by David McCandless, original title "Information is beautiful".
It has a two-page spread detailing (or trying to) developments from the 1960s to the 2000s in pop / rock, with cross influences.
Talk about a spaghetti plate!!! I have never even heard of at least 90% of the styles mentioned, and have no idea about what some of the remaining 10% sound like.
But they all have their following, apparently. Some may have petered out, or evolved. And with revivals cropping up at intervals ...
So too do the various variants of Fantasy / The Fantastic have their following. Or other genres which make me roll my eyes where some authors have had some massive sales.
Some German "literati" types might, for example, turn up their noses at some guy from Stratford-upon-Avon who never managed to write a "Faust" and was basically just a playwright who dabbled a bit in poetry. And a lot of what he wrote he stole from Italian authors, and don't get me started on the accuracy of his historical stuff.
Let the free-for-all rumble begin!

Hopefully, ahaha, you'll like my High Fantasy!





CL

 

[Halasían]

Aragorn and Eomer literally led mop-up wars.


See, no plot-hole.


CL

Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.

For all you who were able to actually read any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Yes, and my wife and I have written a whole fanfic novel based on these post-War of the Ring mop-up wars. There were campaigns in Harad, Khand, and Rhun.

For all you who were able to actually read any of GRR Martin's books, hats off to you. I did try and read Game of Thrones a few times, making it halfway once before putting it down to never pick up again. I just couldn't get the feel of it. I for one was glad a TV series was made from it as it was somewhat entertaining. I sure as hell wasn't ever going to try and read his books again.

I'm not going to even try - It's not my on my fantasy wavelength.


CL

 

[ArwenStar]

I have one of his (got it before I read LoTR) and when I got it sounded great, but now I can’t even pick it up because it is emitting bad, anti-Tolkien vibes. Maybe I’ll get some gloves and throw it in a bin. And it takes up too much space on my overfull bookshelves.

 

[H0bb1t4]

Martin may have a point yet I like so many other fans of A Song of Ice and Fire have too long been waiting for Winds of Winter...which he hasn't even given any updates on...

 

[Deimos]

Martin's "magnum opus" (such as it is) can be described as a multivolume work featuring [ad tedium] that soul destroying triad libido sentiendi, libido sciendi, libido dominandi.
An existence where truth, goodness and beauty are relative; a world ultimately without hope.
I found it both tiresome and depressing.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

At least it has a plot.

 

[Alice]

The only plothole I see is that nazgul are useless. Though maybe there is an explanation even for that.
I find it disrespectful to look for other 'plotholes' in a such great book

 

[Ent]

"In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit."

Wouldn't that be a "plot" hole?

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

"In a hole in the ground, there lived a Hobbit."

Wouldn't that be a "plot" hole?

Martin didn't know what he was "Tolkien" about.😔

 

[Eljorahir]

Martin doesn't mention plot holes in this interview. Challenged (with a question) to find something wrong with LOTRs he says something else that might offend the Tolkien Fandom (maybe it's sacrilegious to even entertain such a question?). Otherwise, he seems to speak quite adoringly about LOTRs.

 

[Radaghast]

The silliest thing he says, imho, is that "Gandalf should have stayed dead." If so, it would be a different book 🙄

 

[Olorgando]

The silliest thing he says, imho, is that "Gandalf should have stayed dead." If so, it would be a different book 🙄

Right, but it's OK for Sauron to have his bodily form destroyed twice, but come back? 🤨 Geooooorge - just finish your last Ice&Fire book.

 

[Radaghast]

Right, but it's OK for Sauron to have his bodily form destroyed twice, but come back? 🤨 Geooooorge - just finish your last Ice&Fire book.

I'll be glad if he finishes the supposedly penultimate book at this point.

 

[Olorgando]

I'll be glad if he finished the supposedly penultimate book at this point.

Oh, so he still has two Unfinished Tales in his saga? Now that's what I'd call a major plothole!