Glorfindel or Ecthelion - who is a greater 🧝elf?

Ent said:

Interestingly it would seem from the above that Melkor did not corrupt the Maiar by 'superior power' (force).
They were either corrupted by their own choice... "being drawn by his splendor".... or by lies and deceit.

So "power" (in terms of 'force') has little or nothing to do with corruption at any turn.

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This is similar to what I was saying on another thread about Sauron and Superman...Sauron's 'power' was not shooting laser beams or throwing tanks. It was a spiritual dread that cowed others. The higher ranking Maia may have various 'powers', based on the forms they make on Arda, but what gives them mastery/the ability to overawe others is their 'spiritual hierarchy'. Which diminishes when they squander it but, with Melko and Sauron, they had a lot to squander before they were less-than your average Elf or Baggins. Once Sauron was made nothing but a shadow that gnaws on itself, it was truly 'lesser than' almost any Fea, and could no longer dominate men.

Gloranthan said:

It was a spiritual dread that cowed others. The higher ranking Maia may have various 'powers', based on the forms they make on Arda, but what gives them mastery/the ability to overawe others is their 'spiritual hierarchy'

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I'm struggling to reconcile the 'power' issues just a little.

We recall when Sauron's attention and thought were removed/switched from his armies to the Ring at the edge of the abyss at Mt. Doom, they were left completely adrift.

That speaks of a fear and dread certainly, but also some kind of a 'force' or control of mind.

I'll keep dappling with it.

But I need to stay focused for now on 'the great mystery of "Is". Something I began pondering earlier this morning that's consuming all my thoughts at the moment.

Ent said:

I'm struggling to reconcile the 'power' issues just a little.

We recall when Sauron's attention and thought were removed/switched from his armies to the Ring at the edge of the abyss at Mt. Doom, they were left completely adrift.

That speaks of a fear and dread certainly, but also some kind of a 'force' or control of mind.

I'll keep dappling with it.

But I need to stay focused for now on 'the great mystery of "Is". Something I began pondering earlier this morning that's consuming all my thoughts at the moment.

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Something similar to a geas perhaps? Or some kind of magical compulsion?

ZehnWaters said:

Something similar to a geas perhaps? Or some kind of magical compulsion?

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Or a telepathy equivalent of persuasion/charisma.

I guess this is all a bit off the Thread topic, but it is very interesting.

Maybe we can search around and see if there's an appropriate thread for discussing the nature of the powers of the Valar, Maiar, Elves, Numenoreans, etc.
What exactly is meant by 'lesser men' in its one reference, etc.

Meanwhile, regarding the actual Thread topic, I must come back to the same concept Ent always pursues with such questions:
"Define 'greater'". The answer may differ given the definition.

Ent said:

Melkor did have many Maiar in his service. ( . . .) The Balrogs were just a few of the Maiar he deceived and drew.

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Correct O Ent.

We also have some Maiar-orcs, for example of another sort.

Findekano_Astaldo said:

I find both of their characters pretty interesting, but Glorfindel did get reborn, was that a testament to his prowess and achievements?

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Generally speaking, it was the fate of the Elves to be reincarnated, if they desired it *

Glorfindel was unique in that his body was restored in Aman before the Ban was lifted.

Tolkien notes that Glorfindel was an Elda of high and noble spirit, and it seems he left Aman [incurring the ban] reluctantly, had had no part in the kinslaying, but "most importantly" [JRRT] he'd sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives of Gondolin [including Earendil of course], a deed of "vital importance to the designs of the Valar"

Thus, Goldilocks was purged of any guilt he had incurred from the Rebellion, released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him before the lifting of the Ban.

__________

* the restoration of the body could be delayed by Manwe, if the Elf while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living -- or in the gravest cases, such as Feanor, bodily restoration could be withheld and referred to the One.

Elthir said:

Correct O Ent.

We also have some Maiar-orcs, for example of another sort.

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Boldogs!

Elthir said:

Generally speaking, it was the fate of the Elves to be reincarnated, if they desired it *

* the restoration of the body could be delayed by Manwe, if the Elf while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other person among the living -- or in the gravest cases, such as Feanor, bodily restoration could be withheld and referred to the One.

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From my understanding, the Valar had to reincarnate the elves eventually but Manwë could essentially put it off until the end of the world.