Glorfindel's lineage

Rúmil · Jul 9, 2002

I believe that Glorfindel in the Sil was not the same person as Glorifindel in the Lotr: the Sil states plainly:

Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss.

I think Glorfindel in the Lotr was of the same house as Glorfindel of the Sil, and possibly named after him for his physical resemblance. At any rate, I agree that Glorfindel was of Vanya descent; not fully Vanya, as none of them ever returned, but maybe a brother-in-law of Turgon's.

Cian · Jul 9, 2002

Tolkien penned a couple essays, the Prof. himself apparently concluding therein that the two Glorfindels were indeed the same. Also that he was a Noldo (as Tar-E said) ... in The Book Of Lost Tales mythology Glorfindel was a Gnome (one of the Noldoli).

Rúmil · Jul 9, 2002

I never came across that material; it would at any rate mean revising the text of the published Silmarillion. Could you please tell me where that essay could be found? never miss an occasion for reading something by Tolkien

Cian · Jul 9, 2002

The essays can be found in the HOME vol. The Peoples Of Middle-Earth

JRRT did add that the duel with the demon may need revision, but the idea regarding Glorfindels "return" has to do with his reincarnation, thus implying that his sacrifice against the Balrog was to 'stay' in any updated revision IMO. Cheers

Rúmil · Jul 9, 2002

Ok, thanks Cian; I haven't had a chance to read Home vol XII *looks sidelong at the guy at his local bookshop* though I sould receive it some time in August *cringes with impatience*

Cian · Jul 9, 2002

No problem. I guess the above now amounts to a bit of a spoiler ... ah well there's lots more awaiting you in August in any case

aragil · Jul 9, 2002

I thought some of the essays specifically addressing the name 'Glorfindel' concluded that the name could not be Quenya (or Noldorin, or what have you). Is that so, or did I only dream it? In any case, I agree with the line of logic that no pure Noldo could have blonde hair (kind of like no pure troll being immune to sunlight), so I think that a Vanya influence is probably a good thing to look for.

Rúmil · Jul 9, 2002

Quenya is Noldorin. Some time by 1950 Tolkien realized that the native laguage of the Noldor was Quenya. What had been previously called Noldroin (in the Etymologies) was changed to Sindarin and became the language of the Grey-Elves. I think it's a general agreement that Glorfindel had Vanya blood though.

Cian · Jul 9, 2002

Tolkien had expressed that the name was difficult to fit into Sindarin, "... and cannot possibly be Quenyarin."

One can have a Sindarin name in Gondolin and still be a Noldo though. The name was Gnomish in origin (the "precursor", in a very general sense, of Noldorin > Sindarin)

Not the Trolls again!

~~~~~
A possible Quenya (by meaning) form from David Salo goes Laurefindele

Mormegil · Jul 9, 2002

I think that you are all missing the obvious answer here. Glorfindel was a black haired Noldo. But sometime early in his youth he invented peroxide and became the first bottle blonde in ME. Problem solved.

Rúmil · Jul 9, 2002

So maybe his just changed the spelling of his name so it could fit round a Sindarin tongue...

¤-Elessar-¤ · Jul 13, 2002

I just remembered. I read in a book (like the illistrated encyclopedia of Middle earth, or Tolkien, or something..., anyways, it was written by a tolkien scholar) that the Glorfindel of Rivendale was named after the one of Gondolin, that the one of Gondolin perished in the assault.

Rúmil · Jul 13, 2002

I'm afraid that book isn't always accurate... Glorfindel died, and that's a fact. But is Glor from Lotr a descendant of Glor balrog-bane, or randomly named so because he had golden hair, or is it himself back from the dead?

Legolas_lover12 · Jul 16, 2002

ok, here r some things i found:

during the third age few remained of the mighty noldor who had returned to middle earth in exile durring the elder days. of these, one of the nolblest was glorfindel, of the house of finarphir, an elf-lord of a house of princes, leader of the hosts of rivendell and one of elrond's cheif counsellors.

to me this means that the same glorfindel who came back to ME in exile in the elder days is in ME in the third age. it also says he is noldorion. so i think he is the same one reincarnated. i think tolkien once said (someplace) that when he saw they had the same name he made them the same person. even though it really wasn't his original intent. or something like that it also says he is of the house of finarphir. it says someplace else:

finrod the golden-haired was himself of finarphir's house.

so since finrod is the son of finarfin that would mean he is of the house of finarfin, not fingolfin.

this is what it says about finarphir:

one of the great high-elves of ancient eldamar, the founder of the royal edarian house of the finwe, whose descendants included finrod felagund and his sister galadriel. gildor inglorion and the prince glorfindel were also of his kin.
the house of finarphir was the only house of elves of any sort to produce golden hair in it's children; as a tolken of this; the banner of the house was worked in gold.

so he is realated to turgon because turgon is also of the house of finarphir. turgon being the son of fingolfin who is the sone of finwe who is of the house of finarphir.

i do hope this helps.

Tar-Elenion · Jul 17, 2002

Where are you taking these quotes from? There are assumptions and innaccuracies in them.

Legolas_lover12 · Jul 17, 2002

they are from The Tolkien Companion. the insipensable guide to the wondrous legends, history, languages, and peoples of midlle earth. it is like a dictonairy of everything a bout middle earth. very interesting acctually.

there are assumptions and inaccuracies in them

well, we are all assuming things. so everything is an assumption because we don't really "know". we all have a different opinion. like who we assume (or think) glorfindel is related to. does that mke u happy?? probably not...........................................

Cian · Jul 17, 2002

If you want the 'answer' as Tolkien himself apparently decided on paper (at least) then, as said, the two Glorfindels were indeed the same. That general 'conclusion' is clear from these essays published in POME.

Rúmil · Jul 17, 2002

Yes, that is the conclusion. But it means he reincarnated very fast.

Legolas_lover12 · Jul 17, 2002

well, what's wrong with that?? is it written somewhere that elves can't reincarnate fast??? is there a certain time span they have to stay dead?? *sarcastic*

Rúmil · Jul 17, 2002

Nothing wrong with it, it's just a little unusual.

Glorfindel's lineage

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