KnightFluttershy
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- Dec 5, 2025
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"One might ponder the contrast between the legends of the torture of Prometheus and of Loki: the one for assisting men, the other for assisting the powers of darkness" - Beowulf:The Monsters and the Critics by J.R.R. Tolkien
In this lecture, Tolkien, amongst discussions of other things, does bring into consideration a very interesting point about the Greco-Roman gods and the Norse gods, as well as the influence of these Norse ways of thinking on the story of Beowulf. He brings to attention how the Greek gods will, depending on their plans and their moods, sometimes aid humanity, but are also perfectly happy to side with the monsters of the story and against humanity.
Meanwhile, the Norse gods such as Odin are never seen to take the side of the monsters, and, especially regarding Thor, seem to take a consistently defensive role when it comes to humanity;
"Take for example the tale of Odysseus and the Cyclops —the No-man trick. Odysseus is struggling with a monstrous and wicked foe, but he is not exactly thought of as struggling with the powers of darkness. Polyphemus, by devouring his guests, acts in a way which is hateful to Zeus and the other gods: yet the Cyclops is himself god-begotten and under divine protection, and the fact that Odysseus has maimed him is a wrong which Poseidon is slow to forgive. But the gigantic foes whom Beowulf has to meet are identified with the foes of God...'The Northern Gods', Ker said, 'have an exultant extravagance in their warfare which makes them more like Titans than Olympians; only they are on the right side,though it is not the side that wins. The winning side is Chaos and Unreason'—mythologically, the monsters—'but the gods, who are defeated, think that defeat no refutation.' And in their war men are their chosen allies, able when heroic to share in this 'absolute resistance, perfect because without hope'. At least in this vision of the final defeat of the humane (and of the divine made in its image),and in the essential hostility of the gods and heroes on the one hand and the monsters on the other,we may suppose that pagan English and Norse imagination agreed."
This is not to say, of course, that the Norse gods were wholly "good" and the Greek gods wholly "evil"; there are plenty of tales of Odin betraying and tricking his heroes, and there are tales of Greek gods helping humanity from time to time. But the fact that, even when Odin does trick and betray men, he never does so in favour to or in service of the monstrous characters like Loki and Jormungandr and Fenrir, while the Greek gods have punished humans in favour of monstrous foes, is a distinction which I think is notable. I would be happy to say that the Norse gods lean more heavily on the side of "good" than the Greco-Roman gods, however.
As someone who has quite a bit of familiarity with Jung and Nietzsche, the Greco-Roman Vs. Norse theme is something that I picked up on very strongly while reading this lecture, but I have not seen much discussion on this topic. I have read Tolkien's references (such as Ker) but I really think this is something worth picking up on more. And I would be very interested to know of any other discussions or resources I can find when it comes to this topic.
As a personal side note, I find this topic to be extremely interesting. Season 1 of "Barbarians" is one of the few things I enjoyed on Netflix, and the story of Arminius and the Norse Vs. The invading Roman Empire is something I have found hugely engaging. In addition to this, I have always found the Norse stories to be inspiring and heroic, while I have found many of the Greco-Roman stories and gods to be frankly disturbing (Dionysos and Pan seem to be especially obvious demonic, diabolical figures), and this lecture is really the last thing that clicked all of this into place for me.
In this lecture, Tolkien, amongst discussions of other things, does bring into consideration a very interesting point about the Greco-Roman gods and the Norse gods, as well as the influence of these Norse ways of thinking on the story of Beowulf. He brings to attention how the Greek gods will, depending on their plans and their moods, sometimes aid humanity, but are also perfectly happy to side with the monsters of the story and against humanity.
Meanwhile, the Norse gods such as Odin are never seen to take the side of the monsters, and, especially regarding Thor, seem to take a consistently defensive role when it comes to humanity;
"Take for example the tale of Odysseus and the Cyclops —the No-man trick. Odysseus is struggling with a monstrous and wicked foe, but he is not exactly thought of as struggling with the powers of darkness. Polyphemus, by devouring his guests, acts in a way which is hateful to Zeus and the other gods: yet the Cyclops is himself god-begotten and under divine protection, and the fact that Odysseus has maimed him is a wrong which Poseidon is slow to forgive. But the gigantic foes whom Beowulf has to meet are identified with the foes of God...'The Northern Gods', Ker said, 'have an exultant extravagance in their warfare which makes them more like Titans than Olympians; only they are on the right side,though it is not the side that wins. The winning side is Chaos and Unreason'—mythologically, the monsters—'but the gods, who are defeated, think that defeat no refutation.' And in their war men are their chosen allies, able when heroic to share in this 'absolute resistance, perfect because without hope'. At least in this vision of the final defeat of the humane (and of the divine made in its image),and in the essential hostility of the gods and heroes on the one hand and the monsters on the other,we may suppose that pagan English and Norse imagination agreed."
This is not to say, of course, that the Norse gods were wholly "good" and the Greek gods wholly "evil"; there are plenty of tales of Odin betraying and tricking his heroes, and there are tales of Greek gods helping humanity from time to time. But the fact that, even when Odin does trick and betray men, he never does so in favour to or in service of the monstrous characters like Loki and Jormungandr and Fenrir, while the Greek gods have punished humans in favour of monstrous foes, is a distinction which I think is notable. I would be happy to say that the Norse gods lean more heavily on the side of "good" than the Greco-Roman gods, however.
As someone who has quite a bit of familiarity with Jung and Nietzsche, the Greco-Roman Vs. Norse theme is something that I picked up on very strongly while reading this lecture, but I have not seen much discussion on this topic. I have read Tolkien's references (such as Ker) but I really think this is something worth picking up on more. And I would be very interested to know of any other discussions or resources I can find when it comes to this topic.
As a personal side note, I find this topic to be extremely interesting. Season 1 of "Barbarians" is one of the few things I enjoyed on Netflix, and the story of Arminius and the Norse Vs. The invading Roman Empire is something I have found hugely engaging. In addition to this, I have always found the Norse stories to be inspiring and heroic, while I have found many of the Greco-Roman stories and gods to be frankly disturbing (Dionysos and Pan seem to be especially obvious demonic, diabolical figures), and this lecture is really the last thing that clicked all of this into place for me.
