Historical and symbolic inspirations in Legendarium

[Aldarion]

OK, since I am interested in Roman/Byzantine history, I noticed something.

Constantinople was often associated with the symbol of moon - specifically the star and the crescent moon. This symbol was used even in Greek Byzantium, and continued to be used in Constantinople. This matches Minas Ithil. Constantinople got conquered and renamed Istanbul, and Minas Ithil got conquered and renamed Minas Morgul. And much like Ottomans took Roman / Constantinopolitan moon and the star for their own, but changed it - original was oriented upwards (upwards-facing moon with star above), and the immitation rightwards (right-facing crescent moon with star to the right), so did Mordor change Minas Ithil's moon into a "moon with a face".

Vienna's name potentially comes from Vindobona, a Celtic-origin name which means "white settlement". Minas Tirith is called the "White City" in colloquial speech, even though its name is quite different. In Croatian however Vienna is called "Beč"; likewise, Minas Tirith's name is different in different languages, with Rohirrim calling it "Mundburg".

Rohirrim are kinda-sorta a mix of Goths, Anglo-Saxons and Poles. Much like Goths, they were allowed to settle as allies (foederati) on previously Gondorian territory. Like Poland, their territory is to the north of their ally, whom they help in the hour of need (6 000 Rohirrim at Pelennor / 18 000 Polish cavalry at Vienna), but in both cases reinforcements are mixed (Gondorian + Rohirrim, Austrian + Polish). In fact, majority of reinforcements in both cases were from other areas of the attacked country (Gondor / Austria). And their language and culture are predominantly Anglo-Saxon.

Barrow-wights are based on Norse draugar. Draugar plagued burial mounds and were unharmed by conventional weapons.

Nazgul may have been based on the Irish Dullahan, a black, headless horseman. Dullahan has ability to cause person to immediately drop dead, which may be where the "terror aura" of the Nazgul comes from.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Interesting stuff! Though I'd point out that the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was modeled on the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields (or Chalons), 451, in Jordanes.

 

[Olorgando]

Yes, some interesting points. But with Constantinople and even Vienna, I think you’re pushing geography way too far to the south-east of Europe to be a source of JRRT’s inspiration. I believe he once stated that one should think of Gondor being somewhat “byzantine” – a term that is ambiguous in the English language, at best. But – I definitely mean no personal offence here – when once pressed (“Letters”?) about relative geography, with his having stated that the Shire was (approximately) Oxfordshire, he located Minas Tirith in Gondor to be approximately where Italian Rome was – and Mordor would thus be the Balkans. A very simplistic view could run “what sent JRRT to the Somme in 1916 was a spark lit in Sarajevo in 1914”.

But never mind if we look at the Anglo-Saxons as they eventually populated England, or any Goths settling in parts of the Roman Empire (west or east), the comparison with the Rohirrim quickly breaks down. The Eorlingas saved Gondor from massive defeat, and were freely given a badly depopulated area of Gondor, thus founding Rohan. Whatever may have been the case with some Celto-Roman “Kings” inviting Hengest and Horsa (I’m going to use that word “mercenaries” again) to help them, the ultimate effect was the Anglo-Saxons driving the Celts to the rims of England – Cornwall remaining a part, Wales and Scotland being rather beyond the rims, and never mind Ireland. The Goths eventually put and end to the western Roman Empire (giving some local bishop strange ideas).

While JRRT did kind of integrate the Goths into his legendarium as far ancestors of the (Anglo-Saxon-derived) Rohirrim – Vidugavia is a Gothic name – integrating Poles seems a far stretch (though the distance from Hobbiton eastward to the Long Lake, Lake-town and Erebor might take you at least into present-day Poland – my atlas has not been overly helpful).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Of course, other people have. . .other. . .ideas. . .

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/hidden-map-message.23921/

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Of course, other people have. . .other. . .ideas. . .

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/hidden-map-message.23921/

Unfortunately, that user stopped enlightening us with their "historic discovery" 🤣

 

[Aldarion]

Yes, some interesting points. But with Constantinople and even Vienna, I think you’re pushing geography way too far to the south-east of Europe to be a source of JRRT’s inspiration. I believe he once stated that one should think of Gondor being somewhat “byzantine” – a term that is ambiguous in the English language, at best. But – I definitely mean no personal offence here – when once pressed (“Letters”?) about relative geography, with his having stated that the Shire was (approximately) Oxfordshire, he located Minas Tirith in Gondor to be approximately where Italian Rome was – and Mordor would thus be the Balkans. A very simplistic view could run “what sent JRRT to the Somme in 1916 was a spark lit in Sarajevo in 1914”.

I only recall the comment that Minas Tirith would be about the "latitude" of the Venice. I have identified Minas Tirith as Vienna, Osgilliath as Budapest, and Minas Ithil as Constantinople; I believe I even mentioned two of those in the OP. Mordor would thus be essentially land-locked Anatolia (even the shape fits).

But never mind if we look at the Anglo-Saxons as they eventually populated England, or any Goths settling in parts of the Roman Empire (west or east), the comparison with the Rohirrim quickly breaks down. The Eorlingas saved Gondor from massive defeat, and were freely given a badly depopulated area of Gondor, thus founding Rohan. Whatever may have been the case with some Celto-Roman “Kings” inviting Hengest and Horsa (I’m going to use that word “mercenaries” again) to help them, the ultimate effect was the Anglo-Saxons driving the Celts to the rims of England – Cornwall remaining a part, Wales and Scotland being rather beyond the rims, and never mind Ireland. The Goths eventually put and end to the western Roman Empire (giving some local bishop strange ideas).

True. But fact remains that Tolkien did use Gothic names for Rohirrim's ancestors. That being said, Rohan's historical role - as opposed to socio-cultural basis - seems to be based more on that of Poland in Habsburg-Ottoman wars.

While JRRT did kind of integrate the Goths into his legendarium as far ancestors of the (Anglo-Saxon-derived) Rohirrim – Vidugavia is a Gothic name – integrating Poles seems a far stretch (though the distance from Hobbiton eastward to the Long Lake, Lake-town and Erebor might take you at least into present-day Poland – my atlas has not been overly helpful).

I was referring to Poles more in terms of their role in Habsburg-Ottoman wars, and specifically Battle of Vienna which is paralleled by Battle of Pelennor.

Speaking of additional parallels, Beacons of Minas Tirith have similarity to two distinct systems: Byzantine beacon system in Anatolia, and Austrian beacon system of Vienna. But where former was used to warn Constantinople of incursions, latter is in its function - calling for help - direcly paralleled by Gondor's beacon system.

 

[Olorgando]

I only recall the comment that Minas Tirith would be about the "latitude" of the Venice. I have identified Minas Tirith as Vienna, Osgilliath as Budapest, and Minas Ithil as Constantinople; I believe I even mentioned two of those in the OP. Mordor would thus be essentially land-locked Anatolia (even the shape fits). ...

I’m going to try to „clarify” plausible real-world placements of M-e locations by using a source that may carry some weight: Barbara Strachey’s 1981 “Journeys of Frodo” quasi-atlas. I say quasi because Strachey, unlike Karen Wynn Fonstad, author of the 1981 / 1992 “Atlas of Middle-earth”, did not have training a cartographer or geographer, while Fonstad actually taught geography at a university level.

With that caveat, I note that Strachey locates Minas Tirith 527 miles south and 575 miles east of Hobbiton (her “Greenwich longitude at the equator” equivalent). Translated to kilometers to be useful for my real-world coffee-table format atlas, that means 848 km south and 925 km east of Oxford. That put us roughly in the region of La Spezia in Italy, on the west coast. A bit too far south and a bit more so west for Venice; for Rome about as too far west, but twice as far to the north as for Venice to the south.

Now for Mordor / the Balkans. Rather large areas, not a “pinpoint” like a city. So, I’ll try for an “overlap” here. Mordor with a northern (mountain) border at around 415 miles = 668 km south of Hobbiton, 610 miles = 981 km east. Combining Strachey and Fonstad, Mordor’s western “boundary”, the Ephel Duath or Mountains of Shadow, seems to extend about 350 miles south, making the southern boundary about 765 miles or 1231 km south of Hobbiton. (I'll give Mordor's extension into the east a pass, as its shape is almost square, something that does not fit the Balkans by any stretch of the imagination.) Now while north-south distances are not a problem, at these kinds of distance east-west runs smack into the “projecting the surface of a spheroid onto a flat map” problem.

668 km south of Oxford brings us about to the latitude of Zagreb (!). 1231 km brings us to northern Greece. Pretty good for the Balkans. Now dropping down along Oxford’s longitude down to the “latitude” of northern Mordor and then measuring 981 km to the east – eh? – again brings us to Zagreb! (Have you done this kind of stuff for yourself, Aldarion? I mean, this can’t be a coincidence, can it?!? )

Going further down Oxford’s longitude to northern Greece and then 981 km east lands us on the west coast of the Adriatic, in Italy. But then here a comparison also breaks down, as Mordor’s western border only curves slightly to the east going south, while the east coast of the Adriatic goes a tad more to the east than to the south compared to a 45-degree angle NW-SE.

*Whew!!!* Enough geography. I need a rest before I go into other topics you raised in your post.

 

[Aldarion]

I’m going to try to „clarify” plausible real-world placements of M-e locations by using a source that may carry some weight: Barbara Strachey’s 1981 “Journeys of Frodo” quasi-atlas. I say quasi because Strachey, unlike Karen Wynn Fonstad, author of the 1981 / 1992 “Atlas of Middle-earth”, did not have training a cartographer or geographer, while Fonstad actually taught geography at a university level.

With that caveat, I note that Strachey locates Minas Tirith 527 miles south and 575 miles east of Hobbiton (her “Greenwich longitude at the equator” equivalent). Translated to kilometers to be useful for my real-world coffee-table format atlas, that means 848 km south and 925 km east of Oxford. That put us roughly in the region of La Spezia in Italy, on the west coast. A bit too far south and a bit more so west for Venice; for Rome about as too far west, but twice as far to the north as for Venice to the south.

Now for Mordor / the Balkans. Rather large areas, not a “pinpoint” like a city. So, I’ll try for an “overlap” here. Mordor with a northern (mountain) border at around 415 miles = 668 km south of Hobbiton, 610 miles = 981 km east. Combining Strachey and Fonstad, Mordor’s western “boundary”, the Ephel Duath or Mountains of Shadow, seems to extend about 350 miles south, making the southern boundary about 765 miles or 1231 km south of Hobbiton. (I'll give Mordor's extension into the east a pass, as its shape is almost square, something that does not fit the Balkans by any stretch of the imagination.) Now while north-south distances are not a problem, at these kinds of distance east-west runs smack into the “projecting the surface of a spheroid onto a flat map” problem.

668 km south of Oxford brings us about to the latitude of Zagreb (!). 1231 km brings us to northern Greece. Pretty good for the Balkans. Now dropping down along Oxford’s longitude down to the “latitude” of northern Mordor and then measuring 981 km to the east – eh? – again brings us to Zagreb! (Have you done this kind of stuff for yourself, Aldarion? I mean, this can’t be a coincidence, can it?!? )

Going further down Oxford’s longitude to northern Greece and then 981 km east lands us on the west coast of the Adriatic, in Italy. But then here a comparison also breaks down, as Mordor’s western border only curves slightly to the east going south, while the east coast of the Adriatic goes a tad more to the east than to the south compared to a 45-degree angle NW-SE.

*Whew!!!* Enough geography. I need a rest before I go into other topics you raised in your post.

I do not think you can take geographic inspirations that directly (even though some certainly try - just count the overlap maps of Middle Earth and Europe). Middle Earth is a fantasy world, or fantastical prehistory of Earth, not alternate history of Europe. Tolkien certainly liked to play with and move around things, so the only way in which this would be useful is for discussion of climatological factors and economy. La Spezia certainly does not have political, military / strategic / geostrategic, cultural or symbolic significance of Minas Tirith, which - in terms of the role played in the story - is much more similar to 17th century Vienna. That being said, I did now notice a similarity between Minas Tirith and Rome: both are landlocked cities which rely on riverine / coastal harbours (Pelargir and Ostia, respectively). So you might say that Minas Tirith was inspired by Vienna and Rome both.

Mordor does not have much geographic similarity with Balkans. As you noted, it is square in shape, which is much more similar to Anatolia. Though you could say Hungarian Plain also has similarities with Mordor, especially being a primarily landlocked, flat country surrounded on all sides by mountains. And I had theoretized before (for myself) that Ithillien - being a country primarily occupied by the Enemy - may have few parallels with 16th century Croatia (reliquiae reliquiarum olim inclyti regni croatiae); especially if Gondor does have some parallel with Holy Roman Empire / Habsburg Empire.

 

[Olorgando]

I do not think you can take geographic inspirations that directly (even though some certainly try - just count the overlap maps of Middle Earth and Europe). ...

Oh, no question about that. I go into such kind of territory (not just about geography) mainly to try a "reductio ad absurdum". If you want to read something about really (in my opinion) far-out speculation on M-e geography, go to the link that Squint-eyed Southerner and Erestor Arcamen include in their above posts, "Hidden Map Message". I've been there, and my short (and harsh) reaction was "conspiracy theory lunatic". Especially as the "Atlantis problem" has been solved in a massively plausible way (not "revealing the truth", something that will remain unattainable concerning such ancient occurrences) by a German-born Swiss geoarchaeologist named Eberhard Zangger starting with his 1992 book, English title "The Flood from Heaven" (no wonder that had me confused, the German title is more to the point!). Atlantis is Troy (or Ilion, if you prefer). Period. Massively corrupted transmission form actual events of around 1200 BC (of which Homer also gave a somewhat at least biased, and covering a very brief period, account). The ancient Egyptians, whose veracity as "historians" in all sorts of temple inscriptions must be called massively in question, were very busy with those Sea People they came in contact with (about whom Zangger also gives a more than satisfactorily plausible account) to get things right about what was happening on the eastern boundary of their ally, the Hittites, at the time. Then Solon, an ancestor by at least four generations from Plato, gathers this information from Egyptian priests while on a sort of "vacation" there, gets a lot of this information wrong (lunar calendar to solar calendar seems to have been his major gaffe, leading to the 10 000 BC or whatever dating of the demise of "Atlantis"). Plato then tries to work this information, descended to him, in what he declared as being a book "trilogy" (oh no!!!) "Timaeus", "Critias" (the main source for "Atlantis), and "Hermocrates". Point is, "Critias" is clearly incomplete, and if "Hermocrates" was ever written (seriously doubtful) then it has not survived. It is the only case in Plato's writings that he did not finish a "book". Point made by Zangger is that at the end of "Critias" Plato suddenly goes into wording ... that is almost identical to the beginning of Homer's "Iliad". No idea what the correct original Greek term for my guess as to his comment upon breaking off his endeavor in mid-sentence was: "**** this!!!!!"