Gondor as Byzantine Empire and other parallels

[Elthir]

I looked into the dating here too, to check that Tolkien had tried to publish his poetry before he met Lewis, that BOLT was already in the making, and that the seeming, arguably lofty aspirations of the TCBS preceded Lewis. Again, not that any of that provides "proof" of my opinion about BOLT, but yeah, I came up with the same general time from H&S.

Also, I think I'll change my "like" to "love" of the Epilogue -- on second thought and following your lead Alcuin -- the question of whether or not Tolkien should have included it, aside.

 

[Akhôrahil]

I signed up to this forum after reading the posts in this thread, because I found the tone of the post of the forum member Merroe from September 1, 2020 in the thread with the title "Elfhelm & Dernhelm" that was quoted in this thread to be inappropriate and because I agree with the theory of Aldarion that the Byzantine Empire was probably the primary inspiration for Tolkien for Gondor. I strongly disapprove of a tone that accuses another forum member of writing "fanfic", "nonsense", of having an "idée fixe", of "confusing prospective readers" and of "undermining the credibility of this site". I also strongly disapprove of a tone that uses sentences in the form of a command in bold letters ("Give use your exact references ...") instead of in the form of a polite request or question. I was shocked that the Forum member Halasían used the like button to like this post from Merroe.

These forums are not a scientific journal dedicated to Tolkien research where posts need to contain references to sources. Just because the forum member Merroe does not seem to know based on which sources the forum member Aldarion based his theory, is no justification for calling his views "nonsense" or "fanfic". In contrast to the demand in the post of the forum member Merroe, the forum member Aldarion does not need to provide a reference where JRRT confirmed that "Gondor=Byzantine" (sic!), because the forum member did not claim that Gondor is the same as the Byzantine Empire. In his post from August 31, 2020 in the thread with the title "Elfhelm & Dernhelm" the forum member Aldarion only wrote that "Gondor is obviously based on Byzantine military organization" and provided a link to an article about the military organization of Gondor. The forum member Merroe does not present an alternative theory of a possible primary source of inspiration for Gondor. It is not the forum member Aldarion's problem that it appears that the forum member Merroe does not seem to know Myriam Librán-Moreno's article "'Byzantium, New Rome!': Goths, Langobards and Byzantium in The Lord of the Rings" in the book "Tolkien and the study of his sources" edited by Jason Fisher. The book was awarded the Mythopoeic Society's 2014 Mythopoeic Scholarship Award for Inklings Studies. Most of this article can be read with a search for the keywords Tolkien Crete Umbar with Google and by selecting the books category in google (this displays the pages 84 to 90 and 104 to 108). I also managed to obtain a display of at least pages 95 to 103, probably by searching for the keywords Tolkien Trebizond and by using another computer in order the circumvent the limitation of the maximum number of pages of a books that can be displayed.

In my opinion Myriam Librán-Moreno's article "J.R.R. Tolkien and Jordanes. Some resemblances in spiritual outlook" is also interesting to read.

View of J.R.R. Tolkien and Jordanes. Some resemblances in spiritual outlook

 

[Olorgando]

... and because I agree with the theory of Aldarion that the Byzantine Empire was probably the primary inspiration for Tolkien for Gondor. ...

And I will continue to firmly reject the use of the term "primary", for reasons that I extensively posted.

 

[Akhôrahil]

And I will continue to firmly reject the use of the term "primary", for reasons that I extensively posted.

Have you ever read Myriam Librán-Moreno's article "'Byzantium, New Rome!': Goths, Langobards and Byzantium in The Lord of the Rings" in the book "Tolkien and the study of his sources" edited by Jason Fisher?

It seems that somebody merged the two posts that I wrote on september 10, 2020 in this thread. I have no problem with those two posts having been merged, but it seems strange that forum members do not even receive a notification when another forum member (probably a forum administrator) changes their posts.

It is also strange that I received two e-mails on september 10, 2020 from 14:05 and 20:21 with the text of a post from the forum member Aldarion and with a post from the forum member Merroe, but those two posts do not show up in my browser when I look at the thread (not even on the last page of the thread). What is wrong with the forum software?

 

[Aldarion]

It seems that somebody merged the two posts that I wrote on september 10, 2020 in this thread. I have no problem with those two posts having been merged, but it seems strange that forum members do not even receive a notification when another forum member (probably a forum administrator) changes their posts.

It is also strange that I received two e-mails on september 10, 2020 from 14:05 and 20:21 with the text of a post from the forum member Aldarion and with a post from the forum member Merroe, but those two posts do not show up in my browser when I look at the thread (not even on the last page of the thread). What is wrong with the forum software?

I think I might have written a reply to this thread and then deleted it as unnecessary. Not sure.

BTW, have you read through other threads on forum? There is interesting stuff.

 

[Olorgando]

Have you ever read Myriam Librán-Moreno's article "'Byzantium, New Rome!': Goths, Langobards and Byzantium in The Lord of the Rings" in the book "Tolkien and the study of his sources" edited by Jason Fisher?

I have, at least pages 91 to 102 of Fisher's book, which was about one third of Librán-Moreno's article (pages 84-115). What I have also done is just now order the book via telephone (cordless, but landline or fixed-line!) with my favorite bookstore, it should arrive early next week. So thank you for the suggestion of the book (my wife is rolling her eyes at "another Tolkien book?!?" 😁 ).

So I'll reserve more detailed comment until after I have read the entire article. The impression I got from that excerpt is that there are many incidents, involving not just Goths and Langobards, but Huns, Franks, Vandals, Bulgars, Persians and more, and spanning several centuries (from the 4th to the 9th at least). But the situations, intrigues, coups, battles and whatnot are far more confused than that at the Pelennor Fields (for which there seems to more than just one parallel, as for several scenes. or at least entries in Appendix B to LoTR). I still find it difficult to distill Byzantium as a primary source for Gondor from this. But this part that I was able to read could well b a listing of parallels that are to be found, while I'm assuming Librán-Moreno will also be drawing some conclusions at the end of the article (and perhaps stating some assumptions at the beginning).

What I am currently re-reading is Verlyn Flieger's 2001 "A Question of Time". One thing it does is firmly establish JRRT as an author of his time (or Century as per Tom Shippey), citing some authors from the late 19th and early, or perhaps first third of the 20th century none of whom I'd heard of before, except for HG Wells and his "Time Machine", as having influenced JRRT as per his own admission of having read them. It led him to abortively write "The Lost Road" (his part of the "wager" with CS Lewis that led Lewis to write "The Cosmic Trilogy") discussed by Christopher Tolkien in the HoMe volume 5 of the same title. Flieger then shows how this line of JRRT's thinking influenced his writing in LoTR over the next 7 years, very much so about Lothlórien. Then, during a hiatus in writing LoTR from late 1944 to mid-1946, JRRT took another shot at writing a time-travel story, "The Notion Club Papers", discussed by Christopher in HoMe volume 9 "Sauron Defeated".

Point is, JRRT seems to have been thinking quite deeply of concepts of time (especially in connection with dreams) at the time, was writing LoTR, had greatly increased duties at Oxford due to WW II, changed his chair in 1945, moved house in 1947 and again 1953, fell out with Allen & Unwin about publishing LoTR (and The Sil, the sticking point), did not get LoTR published by Collins, either (again that Sil), finally got LoTR published, but with RoTK delayed due to his struggle with appendices ...

When was he supposed (at this time, anyway) to have time to research Byzantium, let alone what Librán-Moreno researched, as she quotes sources without end? Some things may fit. From my first reading of the article some things also do not fit, certainly not neatly. I'm looking for ward to reading the whole article.

I think I might have written a reply to this thread and then deleted it as unnecessary. Not sure.

That would be the one about the duck that I got an e-mail notification about? 😁
I'm still not convinced that it's a Byzantine duck ...

 

[Aldarion]

That would be the one about the duck that I got an e-mail notification about? 😁
I'm still not convinced that it's a Byzantine duck ...

If it acts like a duck and shows up as a duck on biopsy then it probably is a duck, even if feathers are different...

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

I think I might have written a reply to this thread and then deleted it as unnecessary. Not sure.

BTW, have you read through other threads on forum? There is interesting stuff.

You can use the function of signature^^Then much more will see your masterpiece^^Just type your connections into the "signature" part. Hope it helps^^Just keep an eye on some "Left Wing Crusader" XDDD

 

[Akhôrahil]

I think I might have written a reply to this thread and then deleted it as unnecessary. Not sure.

BTW, have you read through other threads on forum? There is interesting stuff.

I have read the other threads in which you made posts and a few others, but not all threads in these forums.

I have, at least pages 91 to 102 of Fisher's book, which was about one third of Librán-Moreno's article (pages 84-115). What I have also done is just now order the book via telephone (cordless, but landline or fixed-line!) with my favorite bookstore, it should arrive early next week. So thank you for the suggestion of the book (my wife is rolling her eyes at "another Tolkien book?!?" 😁 ).

You are welcome. I am happy for you that you liked the preview pages of Myriam Librán-Moreno's article so much that you bought the book. At the beginning of the article she discloses which names from which ethnic or cultural groups from late antiquity Tolkien used in The Lord of the Rings, during its development or in Unfinished Tales, which indicates that he had some knowledge about those groups. It is well established that he had an interest in the gothic language. It is likely that he was also interested in the history of the goths and the only work from late antiquity about the history of the goths that was not lost seems to be from Jordanes. Did you also read her other article about Tolkien and Jordanes to which I provided the link? It is possible to download it for free as a PDF-File, if you prefer to read it offline. Myriam Librán-Moreno is a Professor for Greek Philology in the Department of Antiquity Sciences at the University of Extremadura. I hope your wife can enjoy some quiet time while you are reading your new book

 

[Olorgando]

You are welcome. I am happy for you that you liked the preview pages of Myriam Librán-Moreno's article so much that you bought the book.

Well, the link I found on a Wikipedia (English) page - which was specifically about Librán-Moreno's article in the book, not the entire book edited by Jason Fisher (and about which I received a for me confusing notification from my favorite bookstore that delivery will be delayed for perhaps a week because the publisher stated it still has to be printed???) - sent me into part of the world of Google that I normally avoid (I don't Google ...). Besides that selection I mentioned above, however, it also contained the entire table of contents, which promises a lot of other interesting reading - the Rohirrim as Anglo-Saxons is another article that I remember off-bat.

I hope your wife can enjoy some quiet time while you are reading your new book

My wife enjoys nearly total control over our TV set and (more importantly) its remote control - though I don't know if that qualifies as quiet time (she has liking for crime series and one telenovela). Besides the TV programming in Germany that all too often makes me want to react with 🤮, I am a serious bookworm, and my collection of JRRT books (counting four Hobbits, three LoTRs, several duplicates etc.) is at 83 books. Librán-Moreno's would be no. 84, and in the background lurks the 40th anniversary edition of "Unfinished Tales", illustrated by Alan Lee.

 

[Olorgando]

Besides that selection I mentioned above, however, it also contained the entire table of contents, which promises a lot of other interesting reading - the Rohirrim as Anglo-Saxons is another article that I remember off-bat.

Picked up the book on Friday, read it Saturday, reserving Librán-Moreno's article for last - it is the longest one in the book, ahead of an article on the influence John Buchan may have had, and an article on possible Mesopotamian (!) influences.

To do her justice, I'll re-read Librán-Moreno's article at least once. One point that she mentions (and that had been nagging at the back of my mind) is that in the "Latin" west, "byzantine" (representing the Hellenistic East) as an adjective is not a compliment. And Librán-Moreno's does seem to see JRRT's application of "byzantine" in the time of Denethor, at least, in the same negative light. So when JRRT wrote in that famous letter to Milton Waldman of Collins (this part not to be found in Carpenter's "Letters", but in Hammond & Scull's 2005 "The Lord of The Rings - a reader's companion" on page 746), "Now we come to the half-ruinous Byzantine City of Minas Tirith" is not a compliment!. Denethor having what "western" (Roman Catholic, Latin-speakers that Librán-Moreno's article mentions) see as aspects of the degenerate side of Byzantium.

I'll comment more when I have waded through the parallels she piles up (something like four battles being useful as templates of sort for the Pelennor Fields), jumping centuries at a time. 🥴

 

[Aldarion]

Connected to this:

Tax Policy of Gondor

As can be seen from military organization, Gondor is in fact a centralized monarchy in the vein of Byzantine Empire. It remained a fairly centralized monarchy, with not a trace of feudalism to be s…

butterbinn.wordpress.com

 

[Halasían]

This thread and discussion would be a perfect candidate for the Annals of the Eldanyárë forum

"Discussions and activities aimed at understanding the depth of Tolkien's works, and their relationship to other mythologies, theologies, history, and other literary works."

 

[Aldarion]

This thread and discussion would be a perfect candidate for the Annals of the Eldanyárë forum

"Discussions and activities aimed at understanding the depth of Tolkien's works, and their relationship to other mythologies, theologies, history, and other literary works."

Yeah, I posted it here on reflex, but it would have fit there better.

 

[Akhôrahil]

Picked up the book on Friday, read it Saturday, reserving Librán-Moreno's article for last - it is the longest one in the book, ahead of an article on the influence John Buchan may have had, and an article on possible Mesopotamian (!) influences.

Have you already read Librán-Moreno's article in that book and the one on Tolkien and Jordanes for which I provided a link in the meantime?

 

[Prince Imrahil]

Not only is Gondor the Byzantine Empire, but also Rohan is Anglo-Saxon England. ROTK is the story of how Old England saved the West by lifting the siege of Constantinople (a bit far-fetched, but hey, it's fiction). The charge of the Rohirrim is clearly inspired by the charge of the Polish Winged Hussars at the gates of Vienna (a battle also fought against the Ottomans). Tolkien used the central event of European history in the second millenium (the fall of Constantinople) to help him forge a mythology for the English people.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

A closer parallel is the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields in Gaul, 451 as described by Jordanes, in his History of the Goths, which Tolkien certainly read. This was pointed out by T.A.Shippey, among others, such as Elizabeth Solopova. Tolkien's interest in the Goths, and the Gothic language, is well-known. In fact, he gave Gothic names to the northern ancestors of the Rohirrim, and the events that led to the rebellion of Catimir are modelled on the resentment of Romans and Byzantines against the "barbarian" Goths being in positions of power.

 

[Olorgando]

... but also Rohan is Anglo-Saxon England.

A closer parallel is the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields in Gaul, 451 as described by Jordanes, in his History of the Goths, which Tolkien certainly read. ... Tolkien's interest in the Goths, and the Gothic language, is well-known.

First, I would strongly advise against the use of "X is Y" when discussing JRRT's works, especially allegorically. He did not work this way. He used sources, no question, but practically always transformed them to suit his purposes.

Case in point "Rohan = Anglo-Saxon England". Yes, they have many similarities down to names (always an important point to JRRT!), but there is this nagging bit about the Anglo-Saxons viewing cavalry with distaste. Well, I'm re-reading relevant parts of that book mentioned above, "Tolkien and the Study of His Sources" edited by Jason Fisher. One contribution is by noted German Tolkien scholar Thomas Honegger, titled (I compress) "Anglo-Saxons on Horseback?" Here I also compress the answer: "Yes - if you throw in the Goths, very much using cavalry in warfare, into the mix."

Now back to reading, specifically Myriam Librán-Moreno's article (not solely about Byzantium), and one contributed by the editor of the book, Jason Fisher, himself. This sounds some warnings about limitations to source studies. I shall return! (now who once said that and when - at least in 20th century American legend? )

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

...Not only is Gondor the Byzantine Empire, but also Rohan is Anglo-Saxon England. ROTK is the story of how the Old English people saved the West by lifting the siege of Constantinople (a bit far-fetched, but hey, it's fiction)....

Or maybe Rohan could be considered as widely-defined Western Roman Empire vassal, after all, JRRT's work had bunches of ambiguity. Strictly speaking, the western Middle western EU were all widely defined Western Roman Imperial Vassals, if we took a further strictly defined standard of politics, in spite of the other elements, such as difference caused by exclusively contemporary definition, and so forth.

 

[Olorgando]

First, Jason Fisher's contribution "Tolkien and Source criticism". A central statement, in my eyes, is on page 37:

"One must always keep in mind that source studies require a causal relationship, or at least, the probability of one. The proposed source must have been available to Tolkien, and we would like to be able to demonstrate he actually read it. Without that, we may still observe similarities between two works - Tolkien's and another author's - but the best we can hope for, and all we should aim for in such cases, is a comparative study. Poor source studies are often just comparative studies whose reach has exceeded their grasp; subtract the tenuous claims of deliberate borrowing or influence, and you may have an excellent comparative essay."

Further on page 38:

"In the absence of sufficient evidence, there are too many other explanations for the images, episodes, and motives Tolkien's writings seem to have in common with earlier works. It could be that Tolkien and an author who apparently influenced him both derived their common elements from a third party, some still earlier source. Alternatively, some elements may be common enough to derive, in a sense, from a shared pool of mythopoeic elements, found in too many works for us to ever know from which specific one(s) Tolkien borrowed. And of course there is always the possibility of mere coincidence: there is absolutely no reason two authors could not independently invent analogous episodes, images, names, or characters, or even use similar language to describe them. Just because there is a Røros, Vestfold and Østfold in Norway does not mean that Tolkien modeled Rohan on that country."

To be continued ...