How do Dúnedain blades even work?

[ZehnWaters]

How did the Arnorians develop blades that can override the power that bound the Witch-king together? Wouldn't that mean they'd be competing with not just the power of one of the 9 but the power of the One Ring as well?

 

[Valandil]

I imagine some lingering, little-known Numenorean “Magic”. And I like to think just a little bit of mithril, bought at a high price in trade with the Dwarves of Khazad Dum.

Maybe they got ahold of a weapon belonging to the Witch-King and managed to reverse-engineer it.

In other words: I have no idea, Tolkien doesn’t tell us, but I have a vivid imagination.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I imagine some lingering, little-known Numenorean “Magic”. And I like to think just a little bit of mithril, bought at a high price in trade with the Dwarves of Khazad Dum.

Maybe they got ahold of a weapon belonging to the Witch-King and managed to reverse-engineer it.

In other words: I have no idea, Tolkien doesn’t tell us, but I have a vivid imagination.

It's possible, it just seems outside their scope.

 

[Valandil]

It's possible, it just seems outside their scope.

Maybe it lingered from earlier drafts. IIRC, Tolkien originally had the Istari and Nazgûl as Numenorean. That might make them more magical.

But maybe there’s more to it than even that. Remember the Stone of Erech. And the Oath taken there and the Curse laid on the oath-breakers by Isildur. And the construction of Orthanc and Angrenost. Amon Hen, and Amon Lhaw, and the abilities they granted to see and hear. Aragorn’s strength of Will, and ability to wrest the Palantir from Sauron’s control. The flashes of insight by Aragorn, his grandmother Ivorwen, and so many others. His ability to call the dead oath-breakers…

There’s probably more.

Maybe we underestimate the special abilities of the Dunedain, and fail to understand what they really are. Maybe it’s even part of the special blessings given them when Numenor was founded - most evident in height and lifespan, as well as foresight, good health, and “good luck” or special protection in their sailing ventures. Maybe there’s more to it than just that.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Maybe it lingered from earlier drafts. IIRC, Tolkien originally had the Istari and Nazgûl as Numenorean. That might make them more magical.

But maybe there’s more to it than even that. Remember the Stone of Erech. And the Oath taken there and the Curse laid on the oath-breakers by Isildur. And the construction of Orthanc and Angrenost. Amon Hen, and Amon Lhaw, and the abilities they granted to see and hear. Aragorn’s strength of Will, and ability to wrest the Palantir from Sauron’s control. The flashes of insight by Aragorn, his grandmother Ivorwen, and so many others. His ability to call the dead oath-breakers…

There’s probably more.

Maybe we underestimate the special abilities of the Dunedain, and fail to understand what they really are. Maybe it’s even part of the special blessings given them when Numenor was founded - most evident in height and lifespan, as well as foresight, good health, and “good luck” or special protection in their sailing ventures. Maybe there’s more to it than just that.

Yeah but...Sauron had a hand in the construction of the 9. I suppose since the whole thing was fulfillment of prophecy, that might have played into it.

 

[Ricardo]

I don't have an answer, however, we must remember that the Numenoreans that founded Arnor and Gondor were the faithful and Elendil was the son of the last Lord of the Andunie. They brought with them magical items, like the palantiri, and construction techniques that were completely unknown in Middle Earth.

I don't believe they could do magic themselves, they weren't elves but perhaps they had some magical objects given to them by the elves, it's also possible that they got help from Gil Galad and Elrond, and even Galadriel.

 

[ZehnWaters]

I don't have an answer, however, we must remember that the Numenoreans that founded Arnor and Gondor were the faithful and Elendil was the son of the last Lord of the Andunie. They brought with them magical items, like the palantiri, and construction techniques that were completely unknown in Middle Earth.

I don't believe they could do magic themselves, they weren't elves but perhaps they had some magical objects given to them by the elves, it's also possible that they got help from Gil Galad and Elrond, and even Galadriel.

That is true that they had access to the Elves.

 

[Valandil]

From my recollection, I don’t think the Barrow Blades were either imports from Numenor, or of Elvish make.

I didn’t check, but are we not told that they’re the work of the Dunedain? Either by the narrator or one of the characters? And I suspect made in Cardolan, during the years of strife with Angmar.

I need to start a thread about The Magic of the Dunedain.

 

[Ricardo]

From my recollection, I don’t think the Barrow Blades were either imports from Numenor, or of Elvish make.

I didn’t check, but are we not told that they’re the work of the Dunedain? Either by the narrator or one of the characters? And I suspect made in Cardolan, during the years of strife with Angmar.

I need to start a thread about The Magic of the Dunedain.

No, they did not come from Numenor and were made by the Dunedain of Cardolan (that's why they were found in the barrows-downs).

what I meant is the survivors of Numenor knew crafts that nobody else knew in Middle Earth, the blades were specifically designed to hurt the witch king.

While there is no indication anywhere that the Dunedain could do magic, they could have used magical object brought from Numenor, and/or get help from the elves to put enchantments in the blades.

 

[Vardarianna]

How do Dúnedain blades even work?​

Well, the same as any other sword. One of the Dunedain takes the sword in hand by the grip, and they swing it causing the edge to hit things, preferably someone in the opposing army.

The swords of Westernesse had the spirit of their makers entwined in them as they were waught. The forged steel likely gave one some advantage when fighting the dark forces of Angmar.

 

[Eljorahir]

Is a magic-endowed blade even necessary? Was Eowyn's blade something special? Or did she just follow Jon's advice...

 

[Ricardo]

Is a magic-endowed blade even necessary. Was Eowyn's blade something special? Or did she just follow Jon's advice...

It is necessary because the Nazgûl don't have a real body, they are held together by magic and you need magic to break them down. Clearly explained in the Return of the King (I don't have time to look it up now but it's where Merry stabs him).

Eowyn's sword was just a normal sword, but the witch-king was already weakened by Merry's stabbing.

 

[Eljorahir]

It is necessary because the Nazgûl don't have a real body, they are held together by magic and you need magic to break them down. Clearly explained in the Return of the King (I don't have time to look it up now but it's where Merry stabs him).

Eowyn's sword was just a normal sword, but the witch-king was already weakened by Merry's stabbing.

You're probably right, but I'd agree to "implied" or "hinted" rather than "clearly explained".

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westerness. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Was it a magic sword or did it have some undefined ethereal quality that gave it power to "break the spell"? Then again, maybe there's no distinction between these options.

 

[Ricardo]

You're probably right, but I'd agree to "implied" or "hinted" rather than "clearly explained".

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westerness. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.
Was it a magic sword or did it have some undefined ethereal quality that gave it power to "break the spell"? Then again, maybe there's no distinction between these options.

there is another passage that says the blades were full of spells.

 

[Eljorahir]

there is another passage that says the blades were full of spells.

I'll see if I can find that one. Maybe it's in an appendix (I don't know those so well.)

Not quite there with this section from Fog on the Barrow-downs:

"Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun."

So, the mound had a spell, and the sheaths may have had some virtue. Apparently, the blades without the mound and/or the sheaths would have rusted away.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

An older thread on the subject:

Crafting of the Knives from the Barrow Downs

I've become interested in the making of weapons that could do harm to the Witch-King - like the four daggers (used by them as short swords) with which the Hobbits were armed by Tom Bombadil. How were the Dunedain able to make them? Was it done solely by someone from Cardolan, or was there...

thetolkien.forum

 

[Eljorahir]

I see that thread provided the quote about spells on the barrowblades...

Aragorn finds the discarded blades after Merry and Pippin are hobbitnapped:
'...Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor...'

 

[Elthir]

Is a magic-endowed blade even necessary.

Not in my opinion.

Was Eowyn's blade something special? Or did she just follow Jon's advice...

LOL. . . yep (the advice).

I agree with you and Tolkien that Merry's blade was wound about with spells, and I note that the Barrow-dagger, while striking a "non-lethal" blow (in terms of "merely" wounding a leg), broke the spell "that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

And for me this means that after Merry's strike, the "Wraith" could no longer will his unseen body to even try to avoid Éowyn's "lethal" strike. In other words, folks will their bodies to move, especially to avoid harm.

Like people running away from 🐝🐝🐝

And having an invisible body doesn't necessarily mean such a body could not be stung, for example. All in my opinion anyway.