How does Tolkien use language to describe Balrog wings?

[CirdanLinweilin]

Please forgive me if this is in the wrong place or thread and feel free to move it but I had some thoughts about Tolkien and the language he chose regarding wings, or more specifically, regarding the Balrog.

So, to start:
The only place in the entire


Legendarium where wings appear to some to be a literal mention is also figurative language: "its wings were spread from wall to wall." However, there is an immediately preceding simile: "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Being a simile, by definition means the shadows are not wings. By English language rules, that causes the immediately following statement about wings to also be figurative language.


This linguistic structure is called an extended simile-turned-metaphor (with the metaphor more specifically being a hypocatastasis-implied/replacement metaphor.) It occurs when a simile is introduced to compare two objects, but then one of the objects is used as a metaphor in a more extended sense, creating a figure of speech that appears to be literal, even though it is still a form of figurative language.

A simile is a figure of speech comparing two unlike things usually introduced by like or as, but there are other connecting words that can be used as well.
Being a simile, the two compared things are not the same.


Thus in the case of the first part of this figurative language example the shadows are not actual wings.


Context is using text surrounding a word or passage to clarify its meaning.


Ignorance of context commonly causes one to infer a different meaning than the actual meaning of the passage. When the context of a possible. metaphor includes a simile, the simile confirms it is still figurative language instead of literal usage. In this case, the immediately preceding simile reveals this is an extended case of figurative language, starting with a simile and ending with a


hypocatastasis. Extended or sustained metaphors means the figurative language extends beyond the individual passage.


This means canon Balrogs do not have wings by definition of simile and context. Since Tolkien was a philologist, rest assured he knew how to use this structure and did not accidentally cause language rules to change his intent.


Anyway, those are my thoughts.


What are yours?

CL

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

Here are the full quotes from the book (The Fellowship of the Ring, Book 2, Chapter 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm).

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

So yes, I do agree, the text simply says the Balrog's shadow can spread itself like wings.

Then:

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

I can see that some people might suddenly edit their mental image of the Balrog at this point, and give it actual wings.
However, I didn't see it that way. I understood it was still referring to the previous comparison of its shadowy aura with wings. Like you said, I don't see any glaring issue with the way Tolkien worded things.

Even though I saw the Fellowship of the Ring movie before reading the book (I watched the other two movies after), the movie didn't really affect my idea of what things looked like. I guess the tone of the book was different enough that it drew on my own imagination instead of someone else's.
Also, I was quite young at the time. I was very familiar with the Narnia books and the two movies that were out. I could already see the difference between my own imagination, the imagination of the person who drew the illustrations in the Narnia books, and the changes they made in the movies. So I was already used to the various ways a story can be imagined or portrayed.

 

[Elthir]

hypocatastasis.

I had that once.

I'm fine now.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

I had that once.

I'm fine now.

Glad you recovered XD



CL

 

[Radaghast]

I would say they're wings, just not wings for flying. Also, not physical, i.e. tangible appendages. The wispy, smoky things seen in the films serve no purpose and are another indication of Peter Jackson not understanding the text.

 

[Corriedale]

I thought Peter Jackson’s solution was a wink at all sides of this argument. I’ve seen people make good argments for Balrog Wings (in the Silm they did fly), though I always viewed them as man like shadow beings, the darkness coming from them bringing terror. The whole winged demon look isn’t as terrifying to me as a pitch black shadow. The latter has creepiness from nightmares.

 

[Radaghast]

I thought Peter Jackson’s solution was a wink at all sides of this argument. I’ve seen people make good argments for Balrog Wings (in the Silm they did fly), though I always viewed them as man like shadow beings, the darkness coming from them bringing terror. The whole winged demon look isn’t as terrifying to me as a pitch black shadow. The latter has creepiness from nightmares.

No, they had no power of flight in The Silmarillion.

 

[Ent]

(in the Silm they did fly)

It is said at one point they 'flew' to his aid, I believe when Ungoliant was about to make lunch of him.
But that too is figurative language.

There is no real 'evidence' to suggest wings, and significant evidence they had no power of flight when it would really have been useful to them.
Like, falling endlessly into the water in the deeps under the mountain, or flying away from Gandalf when it was relatively clear Durin's Bain was about to be destroyed, etc.

Not only the language itself, but the events, lead for many to the unequivocal conclusion there were no real wings.
Darkness, shadow and fear were the Balrog's greatest weapons... not even the flame it was able to breathe, though of course the flame was a tool as well.

The great mystery is, once one of its greatest symbols of power, its flaming sword, flew up in molten fragments after Gandalf had told it it didn't have the ability to pass and the flame of Udun could not equal the White Fire, why did the Balrog persist in self-destruction?

Oh... inability to think clearly, just as was Sauron's problem. Denial of the truth.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Numenoreans had wings:
"The foul wings of the Sea-men have not been seen in these waters for many a year; but remembering the shadow of fear in the past I cried out, and cry again: is not our life hard enough without the vision of a black wing upon the shining sea?"
PoMe, Tal-Elmar

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

It is said at one point they 'flew' to his aid, I believe when Ungoliant was about to make lunch of him.
But that too is figurative language.

There is no real 'evidence' to suggest wings, and significant evidence they had no power of flight when it would really have been useful to them.
Like, falling endlessly into the water in the deeps under the mountain, or flying away from Gandalf whei it was relatively clear Durin's Bain was about to be destroyed, etc.

Not only the language itself, but the events, lead for many to the unequivocal conclusion there were no real wings.
Darkness, shadow and fear were the Balrog's greatest weapons... not even the flame it was able to breathe, though of course the flame was a tool as well.

The great mystery is, once one of its greatest symbols of power, its flaming sword, flew up in molten fragments after Gandalf had told it it didn't have the ability to pass and the flame of Udun could not equal the White Fire, why did the Balrog persist in self-destruction?

Oh... inability to think clearly, just as was Sauron's problem. Denial of the truth.

Plus, in the more archaic past, to ‘fly’ or ‘flew to his aid’ more meant to flee, or to come to his aid. In a more medieval sense!


‘Fly, you fools!’


CL

 

[Ent]

‘Fly, you fools!’

WHAT? Gandalf wasn't literally telling them to 'fly' with their wings?

 

[Elthir]

Leaves

Galadriel's lament: yéni únótime ve rámar aldaron!
long years numberless as the wings of trees!

Cloud

The Notion Club Papers: "A great cloud coming up slowly out of the west was eating up the stars. As it approached it opened two vast sable wings spreading north and south."

Sails

Tal Elmar: " . . . in greater numbers they come then: two ships or more together stuffed with men and not goods and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings."

Darkness

The Return of the King: "Over the land there lies a long shadow, westward reaching wings of darkness."

And finally (for now): a shadow is like the shape of great wings.

"Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away." (In the House of Tom Bombadil)

Wait what? Well, everybody knows eagles have wings

__________

In Morgoth's Ring the Balrogs: "passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire." -- but "winged speed" could simply be poetic for "very fast".


Or something like something else 🐾

 

[Ent]

figurative language. has many technical names depending on how, when and where it's employed.... but at the end of the day, it's figurative language, of which Tolkien was a master. He knew how to draw pictures with his words.

That's what he did with the balrog's 'supposed' 'wings', which were nothing more than darkness spreading 'like wings' ... he even clarifies for us it's purely figurative language... as @CirdanLinweilin has so deftly and succinctly pointed out... but convincing those who cannot be convinced is like convincing those who cannot be convinced. (or something.)

Note the use of the word 'cannot' vs. 'will not'. (or 'shall not'.) Just as it was for Gandalf in his address to the Balrog, so it is here in its intent regarding convincability.

Fathom that. (or not.)

 

[Olorgando]

Fathom that. (or not.)

Is it possible to fathom Ungoliant, Shelob & Co.? They have eight feet, not six ...

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Please forgive me if this is in the wrong place or thread and feel free to move it but I had some thoughts about Tolkien and the language he chose regarding wings, or more specifically, regarding the Balrog.

So, to start:
The only place in the entire


Legendarium where wings appear to some to be a literal mention is also figurative language: "its wings were spread from wall to wall." However, there is an immediately preceding simile: "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Being a simile, by definition means the shadows are not wings. By English language rules, that causes the immediately following statement about wings to also be figurative language.


This linguistic structure is called an extended simile-turned-metaphor (with the metaphor more specifically being a hypocatastasis-implied/replacement metaphor.) It occurs when a simile is introduced to compare two objects, but then one of the objects is used as a metaphor in a more extended sense, creating a figure of speech that appears to be literal, even though it is still a form of figurative language.

A simile is a figure of speech comparing two unlike things usually introduced by like or as, but there are other connecting words that can be used as well.
Being a simile, the two compared things are not the same.


Thus in the case of the first part of this figurative language example the shadows are not actual wings.


Context is using text surrounding a word or passage to clarify its meaning.


Ignorance of context commonly causes one to infer a different meaning than the actual meaning of the passage. When the context of a possible. metaphor includes a simile, the simile confirms it is still figurative language instead of literal usage. In this case, the immediately preceding simile reveals this is an extended case of figurative language, starting with a simile and ending with a


hypocatastasis. Extended or sustained metaphors means the figurative language extends beyond the individual passage.


This means canon Balrogs do not have wings by definition of simile and context. Since Tolkien was a philologist, rest assured he knew how to use this structure and did not accidentally cause language rules to change his intent.


Anyway, those are my thoughts.


What are yours?

CL

Love this!! Indeed Tolkien was using an extended metaphor to describe the shadow reaching out like two vast wings.

But wait-- there's more evidence than this! Please note the Balrogs have been around for QUITE some time. There's evidence Morgoth captured eagles after the Battle of the Powers and tortured them to reveal the secret of flight. They refused, so Morgoth clipped their wings. (Anyone with HoME can provide the source.) Furthermore, Morgoth's revealing of his winged dragons at the War of Wrath was a huge shock and a major deal. Why? Because this was the first time Morgoth had an air force.

It is probably one of my greatest pet peeves if people believe Balrogs actually have wings after being faced with the evidence.

And of course, Balrogs are pretty notable for falling off a high place to their dooms... *Coughs*

And as Glorfindel, I can tell you they do not have wings.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Love this!! Indeed Tolkien was using an extended metaphor to describe the shadow reaching out like two vast wings.

But wait-- there's more evidence than this! Please note the Balrogs have been around for QUITE some time. There's evidence Morgoth captured eagles after the Battle of the Powers and tortured them to reveal the secret of flight. They refused, so Morgoth clipped their wings. (Anyone with HoME can provide the source.) Furthermore, Morgoth's revealing of his winged dragons at the War of Wrath was a huge shock and a major deal. Why? Because this was the first time Morgoth had an air force.

It is probably one of my greatest pet peeves if people believe Balrogs actually have wings after being faced with the evidence.

And of course, Balrogs are pretty notable for falling off a high place to their dooms... *Coughs*

And as Glorfindel, I can tell you they do not have wings.

Uh...there's evidence of that? I must have missed that.

TBF, I don't think the Ainur had issues flying. At least shortly above the ground. The description of how they attacked certain places implies they came in a whirlwind of fire.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Uh...there's evidence of that? I must have missed that.

Absolutely!

I'll let my good pal NOTR explain:

This covers all evidence.

 

[Ent]

I don't think the Ainur had issues flying.

(cough) Balrogs aren't Ainur.
I'm digging through my sapwood cells, and can't find any place where the Maiar 'flew' in there. (Though this is not 'proof of concept' by any means.)

The description of how they attacked certain places implies they came in a whirlwind of fire.

I always take a step back when I see 'implies'... and I"m not sure 'came in a whirlwind of fire' is the same as 'flying'. All the balrogs we hear of are firmly planted on the ground, using darkess and fear as their primary weapon...including the 'spreading of shadow 'looking like wings' until it stretched wall to wall' in the case of one. (It's true, he also breathed fire and his mane was fire, so he could be said to have 'come in a whirlwind of fire'... but all around him was darkness, much more so than the fire, a careful reading of the passage shows.)

Sauron certainly never flew. Gandalf never flew. Saruman never flew. Not sure I can see the 'lesser maiar' as having flown, either.

I can't overcome the clear language of Tolkien, including his 'figurative language', by potential inferences and implications.

I'll need to search out the passages you have in view sir @ZehnWaters and see what the language says to me.

Can you provide locations of one or two for me, or close enough to what they say I can find them in a 'search' ?
Thanks.

 

[Radaghast]

It is said at one point they 'flew' to his aid, I believe when Ungoliant was about to make lunch of him.
But that too is figurative language.

I don't think it even says that. Per The Silmarillion:

Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her.

• "Of the Flight of the Noldor"

About the only thing that might suggest flight is the word 'tempest' but that is dubious, at best. There is nothing else that pertains to Balrogs in the book that might even suggest metaphorical language.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I don't think it even says that. Per The Silmarillion:

• "Of the Flight of the Noldor"

About the only thing that might suggest flight is the word 'tempest' but that is dubious, at best. There is nothing else that pertains to Balrogs in the book that might even suggest metaphorical language.

The quote misses the part about "with winged speed", which is detailed in the video I posted. But that too is a metaphor.