How does Tolkien use language to describe Balrog wings?

[Radaghast]

(cough) Balrogs aren't Ainur.

Actually, they are. Balrogs are Maiar and Maiar are of the Ainur.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Actually, they are. Balrogs are Maiar and Maiar are of the Ainur.

I would stand to say they are fallen Ainur. Just like Sauron. But Ainur means "Holy Ones", and these evil ones are certainly not holy.

 

[Ent]

"Of the Flight of the Noldor"

Not the passage in view.
Look to SIL where Ungoliant nearly has Melkor trapped and is about to snack on him, and he cries out for help. (After they destroy the trees and he won't give her what she wants.)

The Balrogs are said to "fly to his aid' or language very similar to that hearing his cry.

This is the passage most people cite saying 'they have to have had wings.' But it's figurative language, as is pointed out above someplace by someone else.

I believe the exact passage was even cited for us. Don't have time to look back up, sorry..

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I took an albeit sloppy screenshot from the video. Metaphor!

 

[Ent]

I would stand to say they are fallen Ainur. Just like Sauron.

It is true Maiar are of the Ainur. However, they are of 'lesser power'... a lower order.
So "From a certain point of view"... (Obi-wan Kenobi).... they were Ainur, yes.

Now I'm searching my heartwood for mention of any Ainur, upper or lower 'class', 'flying'.... added to my research list.

 

[Radaghast]

Not the passage in view.
Look to SIL where Ungoliant nearly has Melkor trapped and is about to snack on him, and he cries out for help. (After they destroy the trees and he won't give her what she wants.)

The Balrogs are said to "fly to his aid' or language very similar to that hearing his cry.

This is the passage most people cite saying 'they have to have had wings.' But it's figurative language, as is pointed out above someplace by someone else.

I believe the exact passage was even cited for us. Don't have time to look back up, sorry..

"The Flight of the Noldor" is from The Silmarillion. It contains the only text that refers to the Balrogs coming to his aid, which I quoted.

 

[Ent]

It contains the only text that refers to the Balrogs coming to his aid,

Indeed, I just checked my current digital version of SIL and you are correct as cited.
"Passing over hithlum" is the way it reads now without the reference to 'winged speed'.

Yet @Glorfindel Goldtress' post is what's in my memory.
I wonder if there have been multiple versions of SIL published and this was changed....I had an older one but just let it go the way of books made from trees. This is the reading in my mind.
I'll put this on my research list too.

And I'll need to adjust the contents of my memory.

Either way, neither "with winged speed" or "passed over hithlum" imply wings.
I'll resolve the multiple publications issue later.

 

[ZehnWaters]

(cough) Balrogs aren't Ainur.

They 100% are. Balrogs are Maiar. Maiar are Ainur.

I'm digging through my sapwood cells, and can't find any place where the Maiar 'flew' in there. (Though this is not 'proof of concept' by any means.)

I mean they descended from beyond the circles of Arda. That's...kind of like flying.

I always take a step back when I see 'implies'... and I"m not sure 'came in a whirlwind of fire' is the same as 'flying'. All the balrogs we hear of are firmly planted on the ground, using darkess and fear as their primary weapon...including the 'spreading of shadow 'looking like wings' until it stretched wall to wall' in the case of one. (It's true, he also breathed fire and his mane was fire, so he could be said to have 'come in a whirlwind of fire'... but all around him was darkness, much more so than the fire, a careful reading of the passage shows.)

Sauron certainly never flew. Gandalf never flew. Saruman never flew. Not sure I can see the 'lesser maiar' as having flown, either.

I can't overcome the clear language of Tolkien, including his 'figurative language', by potential inferences and implications.

I'll need to search out the passages you have in view sir @ZehnWaters and see what the language says to me.

Can you provide locations of one or two for me, or close enough to what they say I can find them in a 'search' ?
Thanks.

Balrog Wings

Continued from Part 1 of Do Balrogs Have Wings? Do Balrogs Fly?. NOTE: Once again the forces of inflammatory prose have risen up to make false claims about this essay (Other Minds issue 10). At no …

www.xenite.org

"What J.R.R. Tolkien actually wrote was “swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.” Unfortunately, only part of this text was used by Christopher Tolkien in THE SILMARILLION. What he wrote “and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.”

Why did Christopher change the text? He doesn’t say. It may only have been an error of omission. But it’s not simply a matter of omission, he changed the verbal phrasing completely from “they passed with winged speed over Hithlum” to “passing over Hithlum”."

Michael Martinez further clarifies his explanation here. Basically they HAVE "wings" in the sense that the "shadow" extending out from the Balrog were described as such. Just like a mansion has "wings".

The Truth About Balrogs (Again) – Tolkien Studies on the Web

 

[ZehnWaters]

The quote misses the part about "with winged speed", which is detailed in the video I posted. But that too is a metaphor.

Is it? Seems it could be viewed either way considering how they're stated to move and how swiftly they would have needed to travel considering the distance.

 

[ZehnWaters]

It is true Maiar are of the Ainur. However, they are of 'lesser power'... a lower order.
So "From a certain point of view"... (Obi-wan Kenobi).... they were Ainur, yes.

Now I'm searching my heartwood for mention of any Ainur, upper or lower 'class', 'flying'.... added to my research list.

Sauron turned into a Vampire and flew away, if memory serves but I'd need to read the passage again.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Indeed, I just checked my current digital version of SIL and you are correct as cited.
"Passing over hithlum" is the way it reads now without the reference to 'winged speed'.

Yet @Glorfindel Goldtress' post is what's in my memory.
I wonder if there have been multiple versions of SIL published and this was changed....I had an older one but just let it go the way of books made from trees. This is the reading in my mind.
I'll put this on my research list too.

And I'll need to adjust the contents of my memory.

Either way, neither "with winged speed" or "passed over hithlum" imply wings.
I'll resolve the multiple publications issue later.

Correct. What JRRT wrote is not what was published in Christopher's amalgamation of a book.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Is it?

Yes, Tolkien used plenty of metaphors in his writing. I posted a video on here explaining in further detail.

 

[Olorgando]

Correct. What JRRT wrote is not what was published in Christopher's amalgamation of a book.

If you look at HoMe volumes 6 to 9, JRRT wrote a lot there that was not published by himself in LotR. As Tom Shippey points out, these volumes are a cautionary tale for some all-too-romantic ideas about how (some) authors' works hailed as strokes of genius in their final form actually came about.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Sauron certainly never flew

Except his brief stint in the Sil, but we will conveniently disregard that.

EDIT: Ah, I see it has already been brought up. LOL

CL

 

[Ent]

So you see? There is ample reason whether Balrogs have wings or not will always remain in the Great Halls of Speculation, handy on the first floor, first row of shelves, right next to Tom Bombadil, and just when we think it has died down and been returned to its resting place, it will be requested and trotted out* before the public again for another rehash.

Time to move on to why the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mordor?

*p.s. - the term 'trotted out' here does not intend to mean, nor imply, the topic actually has four legs like a horse. it is strictly figurative language.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

*p.s. - the term 'trotted out' here does not intend to mean, nor imply, the topic actually has four legs like a horse. it is strictly figurative language.

Hmm... it's almost like how 'winged speed' does not mean a Balrog actually flew to Morgoth's rescue... *Coughs*

 

[Elthir]

Winged Speed

For myself, I'd only use "winged speed" to refer to things without wings. Not that I represent every writer who ever lived, but just sayin.

Of The Flight of the Noldor

Nice try Tolkien, but you already published: " . . . not that any of the Quendi ever possessed wings of the body, as unnatural to them as to Men." JRRT, The Return of the King, Appendix F

Nice try Elthir, but one doesn't necessarily need wings to fly.

 

[herlig9]

But couldn't the Balrog fly up if he had wings? Why did he choose to fall down?

 

[Elthir]

Gravity chose the Moria Balrog.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

But couldn't the Balrog fly up if he had wings? Why did he choose to fall down?

As I stated on the main thread: