How fast is 🐴Shadowfax?

[Radaghast]

A question on Quora led me to wonder what the top speed of Shadowfax is. An Internet search turned up an estimate on stackexchange.com of 150 mph, which seems a very high estimate (and I don't understand how it was obtained). Gandalf rides from Isengard to Minas Tirith, a distance of 440 miles (if I'm not mistaken) in four days, with I think one stop. If Shadowfax could run at 150 mph, he could make that trip in less than four hours, not four days.

Anyway, anybody have any insight?

 

[Jimbo Baggins]

A little faster than a normal horse. Unless he grew a horn. Unicorns can fly.

 

[Olorgando]

Well, Wikipedia states that the American Quarter Horse is the fastest sprinter among horses.
"Its name came from its ability to outdistance other horse breeds in races of a quarter mile or less; some have been clocked at speeds up to 88.5 km/h (55.0 mph)."

Almost three times as fast would make Shadowfax's legs look like those of Road Runner or Speedy Gonzalez of Warner Brothers cartoon fame. Quite ridiculous. 🤨

Oh, and by the way, someone riding on Shadowfax at 150 mph would be facing into a headwind at the top end of a category 4 hurricane. Category 5 starts at 157 mph. Gandalf would sure have to do something drastic to keep his hat on ...

 

[Deimos]

A question on Quora led me to wonder what the top speed of Shadowfax is

Anyway, anybody have any insight?

Insight? I'm loaded with insight. I have so much insight that it spills over and becomes outasight.

So to answer the question of how fast Shadowfax was...:
Fast, Very Fast.... Which is a heckuva lot faster than Half Fast.

 

[Radaghast]

Actually, now that I look at it, there was probably more than one stop. Probably at least three. Otherwise it means Shadowfax couldn't have been running very fast at all.

 

[Deimos]

What we know:
On 5 March, Gandalf with Pippin on Shadowfax left Dol Baran after dark, (before midnight ) and reached Edoras at dawn on 6 MArch.
That is they traveled 145 miles in about 6 hours at the shortest or maybe 8 hours at the longest .
They did not stop to rest. As Pippin recalls later "There had been that first ride at terrible speed, without halt..."
So, Shadowfax would have had to AVERAGE between 18 and 24 mph.... call it 21 mph

Average horse at full gallop can hit 40mph; it can maintain that speed for about 2-3 minutes before becoming fatigued.
What Gandalf did was either 1) Kept Shadowfax at a constant 21 mph, or
2) varied his speed from well above 40mph to a lot slower to give Shadowfax time to recover (Shadowfax still had a horse's nature, just enhanced. So he still had to be "run" like horse, and varying the speed is good for it. Nor could Shadow Fax run endlessly at top speed; he could just do it for a lot longer than a normal horse. )

Gandalf and Pippin stopped briefly at Edoras (morning of 6 March) but went on to Minas Tirith, another 350 miles, beginning either in daylight or at dusk.
They arrived at the Rammas Echor in twilight, before dawn, on 9 March....that is they rode for maybe 60 -70 hours.
So on that journey Shadowfax averaged only 5-6 mph.
Yet we know that Gandalf pressed him. So again we have to assume that at times he exceeded 40 mph but at other times he cantered (or even walked?) at a much slower pace. And this makes sense. After pressing him so hard from Dol baran to Edoras, he let up quite a bit for him to recover on the way to Minas Tirith.

(Gandalf knows horses, knows how to ride them and pace them. He would breeze to a Triple Crown no matter what horse he rode 😁)

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Wow. Mathematics are on point. Good job, @Deimos . You've done the impossible!

 

[Deimos]

Wow. Mathematics are on point. Good job, @Deimos . You've done the impossible!

Well, thank you.🙂
However, using the books, Karen Fonstad's maps, Google and my calculator, it wasn't too difficult to "put it together".

btw... one interesting source: Different gaits of horses

 

[Olorgando]

Gandalf and Pippin stopped briefly at Edoras (morning of 6 March) but went on to Minas Tirith, another 350 miles, beginning either in daylight or at dusk.
They arrived at the Rammas Echor in twilight, before dawn, on 9 March....that is they rode for maybe 60 -70 hours.
So on that journey Shadowfax averaged only 5-6 mph.

Not quite
Checking the first chapter of Book Five and volume 3 RotK, "Minas Tirith", from Edoras on it was "And then again riding, riding in the night. This was the second, no, the third night since he {Pippin} had looked into the stone." And a bit later "Another day of hiding and a night of journey had fleeted by." This when they reached the Rammas Echor.
It being close to the spring equinox, the nights were only slightly longer than the days. If Gandalf avoided the two twilight periods of each night, they may have ridden for 33 hours or less, so averaging at least 11 mph. As horses belong to the animals that sweat, Shadowfax probably needed a (hefty?) drink every once in a while. And as you stated, they probably changed paces every once in a while, they weren't galloping all the time. That bit in western films (or others involving horses) where everyone is constantly galloping full tilt is just another example of the Baloney Slices served up by films.

 

[Radaghast]

Also, just a random thought, but there's a point where Gandalf explains (or attempts to explain) to Pippin the history of the beacons of Gondor. Not something that would be clearly audible over the thundering hooves of a horse at full gallop.

 

[Radaghast]

A screenshot (from LOTR Project) of Gandalf and Pippin's path (orange line) from Isengard to Minas Tirith shows that the trip was a bit more than 440 miles though I couldn't really give a guess as to how much more.

 

[Olorgando]

A screenshot (from LOTR Project) of Gandalf and Pippin's path (orange line) from Isengard to Minas Tirith shows that the trip was a bit more than 440 miles though I couldn't really give a guess as to how much more.
View attachment 22540

Checking Fonstad's map, I got a reading of about 475 miles "as the crow flies", i.e. in a straight line from Isengard to Minas Tirith. So over 500 miles as per Deimos's estimate looks more likely than 440. Straight-line from Edoras to Minas Tirith came out to more than 330 miles, but Fonstad does not have Gandalf ride through Druadan Forest, rather around it, which though a bit longer was probably a lot faster. 350 miles for the riding distance Edoras to Minas Tirith looks quite reasonable.

 

[Deimos]

Not quite
Checking the first chapter of Book Five and volume 3 RotK, "Minas Tirith", from Edoras on it was "And then again riding, riding in the night. This was the second, no, the third night since he {Pippin} had looked into the stone." And a bit later "Another day of hiding and a night of journey had fleeted by." This when they reached the Rammas Echor.
It being close to the spring equinox, the nights were only slightly longer than the days. If Gandalf avoided the two twilight periods of each night, they may have ridden for 33 hours or less, so averaging at least 11 mph. As horses belong to the animals that sweat, Shadowfax probably needed a (hefty?) drink every once in a while. And as you stated, they probably changed paces every once in a while, they weren't galloping all the time. That bit in western films (or others involving horses) where everyone is constantly galloping full tilt is just another example of the Baloney Slices served up by films.

Ah, yes, I see my "night count" error.
But how do you account for Fonstad's March 6-March 9 time elapse? (Unless she was just in error)
No matter how you work it 6 March-9 March is max 72 hours and min 48 hours, not 33.

 

[Deimos]

Checking Fonstad's map, I got a reading of about 475 miles "as the crow flies", i.e. in a straight line from Isengard to Minas Tirith. So over 500 miles as per Deimos's estimate looks more likely than 440. Straight-line from Edoras to Minas Tirith came out to more than 330 miles, but Fonstad does not have Gandalf ride through Druadan Forest, rather around it, which though a bit longer was probably a lot faster. 350 miles for the riding distance Edoras to Minas Tirith looks quite reasonable.

I did use 350 miles., but 350/60 hours (as I first figured the elapsed time) is ~6 mph.

 

[d4rk3lf]

If Shadowfax could run at 150 mph, he could make that trip in less than four hours, not four days.

It's not a straight line, and they didn't run on a highway perfectly flat road.
I'd assume some of the terrain was pretty hard for horse, even when in half or quarter speed, and it exhaust the horse like it's in the full speed.
ShadowFax was also carrying the Gandalf and Pippin on his back....
... and Pippin can eat a lot
He grew on Ent's nectar, and decimated Saruman food reserves.

 

[Olorgando]

But how do you account for Fonstad's March 6-March 9 time elapse? (Unless she was just in error)
No matter how you work it 6 March-9 March is max 72 hours and min 48 hours, not 33.

Leave Edoras on the evening of 6 Mar, ride the nights 6-7, 7-8, and 8-9, arrive at dawn 9 Mar makes three nights.

 

[Olorgando]

I did use 350 miles., but 350/60 hours (as I first figured the elapsed time) is ~6 mph.

Calculating by elapsed time, yes. I was basing my calculations on the time they were actually traveling, deducting the time they were in hiding on 7 and 8 Mar during the day.

 

[Deimos]

Leave Edoras on the evening of 6 Mar, ride the nights 6-7, 7-8, and 8-9, arrive at dawn 9 Mar makes three nights.

So you withdraw the 33 hour estimate?
For the sake of Discussion: 9PM 6 March - 9 PM 7 March =24 hours,
9PM 7 Mar- 9 PM 8 March = 24 hours
9 PM 8 March -4 AM 9 MArch =12 hours
24 + 24 + 12 = 60 hours
350 miles / 60 hours = 6 mph (about)
I'm not seeing a problem with my original assertion ....advise please?

 

[Olorgando]

So you withdraw the 33 hour estimate?
I'm not seeing a problem with my original assertion ....advise please?

1. no
2. see my above post, 3 nights of riding 11 hours, if avoiding the twilight periods.

 

[Deimos]

1. no
2. see my above post, 3 nights of riding 11 hours, if avoiding the twilight periods.

Oh...Okay so we agree on the time lapse but not on the speed, because you have them NOT traveling during the day.
OK...makes sense. And then pushing Shadowfax to 11mph (average) when they did ride ... got it.

However.... Twilight (evening or morning) lasts longer than 1/2 hour on each "side", at least where I live...it's more like an hour each side which would only leave 10 hours of riding time per night.

An hour each side is "Nautical twilight" a half hour each side is "Civil twilight".
It's still pretty light at Civil twilight. If Gandalf doesn't want to be seen he should wait until an hour past sunset before he starts riding 😄

Sorry that I was so obtuse in catching on that they wouldn't be riding during the day. 🙄😬
For some reason I assumed that Gandalf would just keep pushing on, day or night.

(However, we have, I trust, established that Shadowfax does not run at 150 mph)