How long did it take for these events to happen?!

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Hello everyone!
I need these informations for a writing project and I don't have access to HoME unfortunately so I was hoping you could help me with it!
I need to know how long did it take for these events to take place:

1.morogth and ungoliant reaching ME

2.the flight of the Noldor and Fëanor's host journey through the sea

3.the time distance between Morgoth screaming and balrogs coming to his rescue.

4.ungoliant fleeing the balrogs and reaching Neldoreth

 

[Ent]

1. morogth and ungoliant reaching ME

Clarification on this one...
Do you mean when Morgoth first came to M-e?
And when Ungoliant first came to M-e?

Thanks.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I meant when he arrived with ungoliant after destroying the trees.

 

[Duguay]

1.morogth and ungoliant reaching ME --The destruction of the Trees and the arrival of Morgoth in Beleriand both happen in 1495 of the Years of the Trees, it looks like.

2.the flight of the Noldor and Fëanor's host journey through the sea -- Feanor's group arrive in M-e in 1497, 2 Tree-years later (either 19 years later or 288 years later, depending on what scale you want)

The second group of Noldor lead by Fingofin arrives in 1500 of the Years of the Trees (about 47-48 years as we know them, or 720 of our Sun years, if you like the larger scale.

3.the time distance between Morgoth screaming and balrogs coming to his rescue. -- This happens in the same year they both arrive in Middle-earth, but The Silmarillion doesn't say how long Morgoth screamed before he was rescued...maybe there's room for your own elaboration. Did he scream for 4-5 years as we know them; or was Middle-earth haunted by decades of Sun Years of Morgoth's agony; what direction does your intuition guide you toward?

4.ungoliant fleeing the balrogs and reaching Neldoreth -- I get the impression this also happens in 1495.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Thank you very much @Duguay!

what direction does your intuition guide you toward?

I was thinking just a few minutes but maybe I should think it through more.
I just wanted to know if there are any information from the books regarding this as I want to keep it as close to the canon as possible but most of them are left for me to decide!

 

[Duguay]

Thank you very much @Duguay!

I was thinking just a few minutes but maybe I should think it through more.
I just wanted to know if there are any information from the books regarding this as I want to keep it as close to the canon as possible but most of them are left for me to decide!

Of course! Good luck with the composition of your story, hope it's a fulfilling writing project.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

If you are interested in the length of journeys and routed taken, you should check out The Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. Very interesting read and has maps of all major journeys/events, including both the journey of Morgoth and Ungoliant and the Flight of the Noldor.

For instance, in the Flight it denotes at what point during the journeys the Kinslaying at Alqualonde occurs, when Finarfins people forsook the journey, and when the second prophecy of Mandos was foretold.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

@LaurelinBearsFruit Oh I have that book!
Thanks for the info!

 

[Elthir]

Did I recently read (in one text at least, see below) that it took Feanor 72 Sun Years to reach Beleriand? Or did I misread that?

If my math is correct, 72 years equals seventy-two years! And if Galadriel could swim. . . on no wait, that's something else. . .

. . . but 72 years?

_____

"The Valian Year spent in reaching Beleriand via the ice aged all the Exiles about 2 years (it took 144 Sun-years) = 72 (but Feanor reached Beleriand in one half the time = Bel. 50 and so only aged 1 year). As soon as they reached Beleriand the rate quickened to 50 = 1."

JRRT, The Nature of Middle-earth, Difficulties in Chronology

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Yeah, all those variants post destruction of the Trees have what I consider absurd amounts of time to get from Aman to Beleriand; even with the 9.58(?) scale, that's still like 40 years or something for Fingolfin and company to march up to the Helcaraxe, cross it, and down into Beleriand. (Rough estimate going off Fonstad's map, it is something to the effect of 5000 miles).

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

Agreed, I have always found the time dilation of the Pre-Sun years to be akin to that of being within the gravity of a black hole or something. I just looked at Fonstad's maps as well, and yes it does seem clear that it took MINIMUM 40 years for the Elves that did not partake in the Kinslaying and walked all the way there. Must have been truly awful.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Going off that time frame they would have been doing about one mile every three days.

 

[Elthir]

I wonder how far I could cat-paddle in 72 years.

Anyway, I'm with you there Tar-Elenion. I've no problem with the 144 ratio, but I wondered
(pre-NOME), if JRRT was going to "break down" the Annals dating when we get to the period
from, say, the Death of the Trees to the Exiles reaching Beleriand.

The Crossing of the Ice could certainly take time, but time being real time, even in Aman, one wonders at certain events.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Well, he was rewriting the timeline (Key Dates in NoMe as I recall, and he started breaking dates down within the 144, I don't have it to hand right now to check), and did not finish, of course.
After all his work on time and distance in LotR, I would hope he would have realized the absurdity of it.

 

[Elthir]

Yes (Key Dates). Above I just meant that pre-NOME, I wondered if Tolkien was going to break into certain years (like those from the Death of the Trees to the arrival of the Exiles in Beleriand), because
144 was so drastic a change, and now a single "year" could cover 144 years of "doing".

My wondering back then was partly based on Note 4 to Myths Transformed, text XI in Morgoth's Ring:
"We may . . . use the Valian unit": in other words, presumably, the old structure of dates in the chronicle of Aman may be retained, although the meaning of those dates in terms of Middle-earth will be radically different."

And part of my wondering was related to the question: how long was Maedros held by the wrist!

 

[Olorgando]

I find it ironic that as far back as the earliest Annals of Valinor, in HoMe vol. 4 “The Shaping of Middle-earth”, JRRT seems to have been struck by the impression that such a snail’s pace just would not do. In the section “Notes on changes made to the dates”, part (ii) “Dates from the Valian Year 2900” (pp 273-4 in my 1988 Unwin Paperback), there is a table comparing the dates of the original annals to penciled changes.

In the annals as originally written the preparation for the flight of the Noldoli is given in VY 2992, and the landing of Fingolfin in M-e in VY 3000. 8 VY at this point were equivalent to 80 years of the Sun.

JRRT then moved all of the events of VY 2992-3000 into the last year, VY 2999. To give “precise” dates for the events, he introduced Sun Years (!), starting with SY 29991 for the Battle of Alqualondë. However, he did not give dates for all of the events, striking out the next-to-last date given, and ending with SY 29996 for the capture of Maidros. The last two event do not have a SY date.

The obvious problem is anybody calculating SY when the sun did not rise until the last event, or actually a bit later – when Fingolfin’s host was already marching across M-e, not at their landing. But at least the time frame is far more plausible.

 

[Duguay]

Something of the writings I read in Morgoth's Ring seemed to suggest to me that Tolkien considered Arda before the Fall of Numenor in it's flattened state as being the solar system or comparable in scope. The Elves travelling from one far side to the other through hazardous terrain with some places difficult to pass while navigating the Helcaraxe, made it seem more possible.

I like @LaurelinBearsFruit idea of some kind of time dilation effect. I also wonder if the passage of time can be accounted for by the destruction of the Trees effecting the passage of time.

I've played with the idea of a story that has an unconventional explanation for time passing strangely in different parts of a setting or based on events. Maybe time passes faster because evil deeds and events committed in the sacred lands erode the fabric of reality. One thing leads to another, and things keep accelerating out of control, pulling the passage of time along with the acceleration of incidents. Wording it the right way can make it sound plausible even if it isn't, maybe?

 

[Elthir]

But Tolkien is rather explicit that time in Aman is real time (nor would the Elves there move in slow motion from an outsider's perspective) -- as in Lorien -- where Tolkien did play with actual time differences [in draft text], but gave this up. It is rather as Legolas notes, that things do not decay
and change equally (in the same amount of time), in all places.

Moreover, in later writings, the Sun existed before the Elves awoke -- thus, it existed while the Two Trees existed. For examples, see the Dome of Varda in Myth's Transformed -- and at least one
reference to it in Tolkien's Later Quenta Silmarillion II (both texts from Morgoth's Ring), when
Ungoliant is preparing to slay the Trees.

Also note Tolkien's revision to the Third Edition Hobbit, in which JRRT removes a fairly explicit
reference to Elves living in a world without a Sun. Or his [Elvish text] The Awakening of the Quendi
[The War of the Jewels], in which the Sun exists before the Elves awake.

Also also, see the Dome of Varda (or Domes!) in The Nature of Middle-earth. And for a particularly tantalizing reference in The Lord of the Rings itself, I note Treebeard's history of very ancient days, wherein the Sun is in the sky (very arguably) before the Elves cross the Sea to Aman . . .

. . . and other, author-published references that I know our Tar-Elenion could list!

 

[Ent]

And now I am experiencing sunstroke.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Did I recently read (in one text at least, see below) that it took Feanor 72 Sun Years to reach Beleriand? Or did I misread that?

If my math is correct, 72 years equals seventy-two years! And if Galadriel could swim. . . on no wait, that's something else. . .

. . . but 72 years?

_____

"The Valian Year spent in reaching Beleriand via the ice aged all the Exiles about 2 years (it took 144 Sun-years) = 72 (but Feanor reached Beleriand in one half the time = Bel. 50 and so only aged 1 year). As soon as they reached Beleriand the rate quickened to 50 = 1."

JRRT, The Nature of Middle-earth, Difficulties in Chronology

"(Note in the “Tale of Years” that 5 VY is allowed for the wanderings of the Exiles, 1495 to 1500, but that was reckoned on a scale of 1 VY = 10 SY, and so was insufficient, being only 50 Sun-years. It is now far too much, being 720 years! Adequate would be 1 Valian Year = 144 [SY]. Therefore the Crossing of the Ice should be in FA 1496.)"
also from 'Difficulties', ca. 1959

In my preparing the 'Ageing Variants' post, I noticed something interesting in my close readings of the various texts.
In Elvish Ages & Númenórean (1965), notice the following:

"Galadriel was born in Aman: “young and eager” at the beginning of the Exile; not yet full-grown: say 20. The March [back to Middle-earth] took a whole life-year of the survivors at whatever rate they were living, sc. to the young [but] “grown” it added 1 growth-year (3 löar); to the older and full-grown 1 life-year (144 löar). Therefore Galadriel was 21 when she reached Middle-earth."

By this, the March did not double the aging rate. It only added 1 'life-year' (144 Sun-years) or 1 'growth-year' (3 sun-years).
This implies that the March took less than 3 Sun-years. If it took 144 sun-years (as per the Difficulties text), Galadriel would have become 'full-grown' during the March. Instead:
"She became full-grown therefore (24) in 9 löar after arrival."

This is a much more reasonable time to march the ca. 5000 miles. Even saying it took a full two years, that is less than 7 miles a day on average, while giving time to rest, forage, wait for good weather to start crossing the Helcaraxe, perhaps get caught in storms and needing to shelter up etc.