How much do you ❤️ Fëanor?

They could have learned how to build boats from the Telerie

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They were ALL in a rush to go to Middle-Earth, many of them had a quarrel with the Valar of their own-Fingolfin was said to be strife with them in the "Shibboleth of Feanor" and Fingon attacked the Teleri thinking the Valar had gone back on their word! Feanor never forced anybody to go, except perhaps for his seven sons, the others went whether they loved him or not.

No Doom of the Noldor

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Elves have a mind of their own-Feanor did not kill all the Teleri by himself, so simply blaming Feanor is silly as the Noldor killed the Teleri and took their ships of their own will. Heck, Feanor didn't even attacked the Teleri at first, he simply took the ships, and they fought back, and the battle started-Feanor is not totally blameless, of course.

Full support of the Sindar

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Many did support them-others were just jealous or silly, claiming the Noldor were usurpers of the land when they wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for the Noldor. Thingol didn't take much liking to them from the start, and IMO the guy is at least as proud and arrogant as Feanor-look at how he speaks to Beren and others.

All of them would have gotten new bodies (including the great Feanor) and so returned to ME to make endless war on Morgoth

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I don't think so, well it wouldn't have panned out as you write it, and besides the Valar claimed they wouldn't aid the Noldor before the kinslaying.

They (the Valar) would have persuaded anyone other to give the silmarils to Feanor and all would end up happy in the blessed relm.

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Most of the Noldor, Feanor included, were bored of Aman-they wouldn't have gone back so soon!

Sauron would be less willing to make war on the rest of middle earth after seeing his masters complete and utter falure and so more ready to repent.

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Morgoth was totally defeated anyway-I don't think Sauron would have repented, he may have, but what is more likely is that things would have panned out like they did after the War of Wrath-he would think the Valar had abandoned Middle-Earth and would have fallen back into his evil ways.

Numenor may still be thriving, the blessed relm would still be on this earth and the elves would traffic back and forth and making the whole world a blessed place

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This has nothing to do with Feanor! The Numenoreans messed it up by themselves-Feanor had nothing to do with it, it was a problem inherent in mankind-the desire for immortality. And besides Numenor wouldn't have existed without Feanor's rebellion.

Inderjit S said:

...Tolkien could have easily have crafted something different? I daresay he could. (And did.) But then again this was the final version, and what Tolkien may or may not have done isn't really relevant...

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This is not a correct statement either. Christopher Tolkien provided us with what HE thought was the most consistent and accurate account of the Eldar in the Silmarillion as published. He never asserted that this was the FINAL version his father would have published had he remained alive to see his work through to completion.

Again another moot point-Tolkien took to making relatively "small" changes to the storyline, the parentages of histories of such and such people (Celebrimbor, Galadriel, Amroth, Celeborn, Gil-Galad etc.), heck he even listed Turgon as the son of Finwe at one time! But Tolkien didn't diverge from the story of the Silmarils as it was when C.T published, he may have altered other things, such as taking the awakening of men back several thousand years, and making the world round since it's conception, but he didn't alter the Silmarillon narrative in any other way-to apply your logic (that Tolkien did in fact alter it's works, in fact his latter thoughts were at conflict with some of the facts in the Published Silmarillion) doesn't really add up, since Tolkien never considered changing the narrative in his latter years. The other anamolies, such as the Awakening of Men, and the Sun and Moon etc. he put down to Mannish myths and fanciful tales-but as he pointed out in Myths Transformed, the actions of Feanor. etc were "factual".

My vote is a 5, simply because I don't hate him, he was cool, but there's the kinslaying, and that gives him alot of minus points.

Inderjit said:

Ingwe-I never said Feanor's bad actions were good because they lead to good.

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Of course you have never said that his actions were good because they lead to good They do not lead to good

Inderjit said:

Also-so what if Feanor didn't give his jewels to the Valar? Also he didn't say he wouldn't, he assented, but said he did they would have to force him to do so, and he would die.

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According to me that means that he would not give them the Jewels. I think (ah, I don't think, I'm sure) that the Valar will not force him to do so and they will not kill him. Do you think that they want blood in the Blessed Realm?

Feanor said it would "break his heart" if the Silmaril's were broken, I think he is saying he would die of grief if they were destroyed, or perhaps kill himself.

The Valar certainly wouldn't have forced him to do so, or killed him.

And how on earth do his actions not lead to good? Just because they do not lead to total good doesn't mean they don't lead to good, because total good couldn't be achieved in Arda. Valinor would have the light of the Two Trees for a while. Wow, good for them, they will live in eternal bliss, sorry they would live in a even more eternal bliss. Doesn't add much to the story or the history of Arda. "Uh...yeah Manwe and co. lived in eternal bliss till the end of time." Also, imagine the jealousy of mankind if the found out the Elves and Valar were able to live in the light of the trees whilst they lived under the sun and moon. But you musn't forget that men would be nowhere near as great without them meeting the Noldor.

And how on earth do his actions not lead to good? Just because they do not lead to total good doesn't mean they don't lead to good, because total good couldn't be achieved in Arda. Valinor would have the light of the Two Trees for a while. Wow, good for them, they will live in eternal bliss, sorry they would live in a even more eternal bliss. Doesn't add much to the story or the history of Arda. "Uh...yeah Manwe and co. lived in eternal bliss till the end of time." Also, imagine the jealousy of mankind if the found out the Elves and Valar were able to live in the light of the trees whilst they lived under the sun and moon. But you musn't forget that men would be nowhere near as great without them meeting the Noldor.

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you know, I don't like Fëanor and I like attacking that strange guy
Of course I think that these actions don't lead to good. How many Elves and MEn died during the War? How many beautiful lands were destroyed. Eventually these lands were destroyed by the Valar and I don't like that deed. I think that Valinor would have the light forever because they will destroy Melkor

Conversation between me and Indy. I am Made of Steel Well, later the conversation continues with comments on the football match CSKA - Liverpool so you'll not find it.

Of course I think that these actions don't lead to good. How many Elves and MEn died during the War? How many beautiful lands were destroyed. Eventually these lands were destroyed by the Valar and I don't like that deed. I think that Valinor would have the light forever because they will destroy Melkor

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How many Elves and Men died? How many of these great Men and Elves would have been anywhere near as great without Feanor's actions? Beren would be little without Luthien and Men would NEVER be raised to the stature they were raised to if the Noldor didn't go to Beleriand and fighr Morgoth, if the Valar removed Melkor it would have simply led to the speeding up of the Fourth Age, Men would have shunned Elves as they did in their latter days, and few Elves would be left in Middle-Earth, leaving Men to quarrel between themselves, much like the world we live in now I guess, or the world two thousand years ago, with a few magical additions. And Feanor NEVER forced any Elves apart from his sons perhaps to go with him to Middle-Earth, they all went of their own will, to seek vengance and also because they were sick of Aman. They knew they would problably die, but that didn't stop them-Feanor claimed songs would be sung of their deeds till the end of time, even if they failed. Also, the Valar may have been able to remove Melkor but they couldn't remove evil from Arda without destroying all of it. What you are arguing for is a bland world, in which life is still hard and sad, just because lots of Men and Elves died in a war which enobled them both-however tragic, fair enough, if you think a world in which Men fight each other for land and other such Mannish desires is better than fighting (and losing) a war against a Dark Lord (or two) then that is your opinion. Not sure Tolkien would agree with you though!

Indy,
First off, however, I'd like to mention that I will not rewrite the History of Arda. I am just a critic and I don't like Fëanor's deeds. It is true that they become greater because Fëanor decided to attack Melkor so we saw their grandeur, we saw that they're good leaders and we also saw their malice (Thingol, Caranthir, Curufin).
Why did Fëanor wanted to take the Jewels and destroy Melkor? Why the Valar didn't like Melkor, why did they wanted to overthrow him? They wanted peaceful live in the Blessed Realm - Valinor. The First age and the Second age would be cancelled. We come to the Fourth age, yeah. That is the 'trick'. No one need wars and death. Peace!

And Feanor NEVER forced any Elves apart from his sons perhaps to go with him to Middle-Earth, they all went of their own will, to seek vengance and also because they were sick of Aman.

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Wow, wow, wow... He has some special powers - his voice (as far as I remember). The other Elves were bewitched by his words. So they came with him.

Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A and the ambitions of Men, it would just be like earth today, which is far from peaceful. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's visions would never come to be, of tragedy and yes death, but these wars are far better and more enobling than wars between Men, unless you think that fighting other Men is better than fighting on the side of good against evil.

Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....

Consider this:

"Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest.
Yea, in the end they shall follow me!"

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I have always totally disagreed with Fëanor being understood as a negative character from the gallery of characters in Tolkien's Legendarium. This character, in fact, is one of the most complex, vivid and impressive ones in this gallery!
Was he good? Was he bad? Were his deeds good or evil? And why do many people, interested in Tolkien lore, let themselves forget all about Fëanor's achievements and remember only his fall - for this is how the negative image about him is being unjustly "settled"? What of the pre-history of his actions? What of the circumstances? What of the shared guilt?
e t c . . .

Who's judging ? !

To understand this character, I think we should very carefully look at it from two p.o.v., namely:

>> from "outside" the story
>> from "inside" the story.

The point is, that when I analyze him from each and either of the above, I still find not an "evil" character!
Tragic, dramatic, complicated ... all that - YES!
But to "label" him and his deeds as simply as "evil" , is IMO a misunderstanding and misinterpretaion.

Inderjit S said:

Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A

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Well, I think I understand you, Indy I think you mean that we (the Elves, Men, creatures in Middle earth) must walk the path from Wars and Death to Peace because they aren't ready for peace (the Men). The must deserve the peace because they aren't ready for it in the begining.

Inderjit said:

Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....

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I will try to give you an answer but which Elves are we talking about? The Elves who remained in Middle earth in the Second age or the Elves who remained in F.A.?

Lhun...You're Fëanorean...
I don't think I forgot his achievments. But some people say 'The good deeds are always destroyed. Nobody remember them. People remember only the Evil that destroyed the Good' or something like that

Ingwë said:

Lhun...You're Fëanorean...

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'Bet I am!

But some people say 'The good deeds are always destroyed. Nobody remember them. People remember only the Evil that destroyed the Good', or something like that.

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Disregarding all the sides, is how false stereotypes get encarved in the collective mind!
What a shame for Men!

I will try to give you an answer but which Elves are we talking about? The Elves who remained in Middle earth in the Second age or the Elves who remained in F.A.?

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The ones who left with Finarfin.

Inderjit S said:

The ones who left with Finarfin.

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The other Elves were too proud but Finarfin is akin to the Teleri so he didn't want to play part in killing his relatives.The Elves who left with Finarfin realised that Fëanor is not right or that they cannot overthrow Melkor.

Lhunithiliel said:

...Disregarding all the sides, is how false stereotypes get encarved in the collective mind!
What a shame for Men!

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You know that I've never disregarded all sides in coming up with any opinions. I just plain disagree with your assertion. Feanor was your typical anti-hero. His actions ultimately led to good (after how many thousand years?) yet the initial actions led to the untimely deaths of thousands (maybe millions) of others who may or may not have perished otherwise.

First is the kinslaying of Aqualonde. Next, the abandonment of his kin which resulted in the crossing of the Helcarxe. Then, there are the countless wars against Melkor.

Yes, a myriad of great things occurred because of Feanor's actions, but one can look at any situation with hindsight and always see the good that arises from a situation and ignore the bad or worse, ignore the "could have beens". I always try to look at the "could have beens" before awarding "brownie points" in any historical basis. IMHO, Feanor and his sons get zero brownie points for their own actions which were always selfish and focused on self rather than the welfare of their own Elvish society as a whole.

Cheers,

grond

Inderjit S said:

Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A and the ambitions of Men, it would just be like earth today, which is far from peaceful. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's visions would never come to be, of tragedy and yes death, but these wars are far better and more enobling than wars between Men, unless you think that fighting other Men is better than fighting on the side of good against evil.

Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....

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Edited out. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's vision would simply have found another path to occur. In the end, Eru would have had his way. It is the case in every Legendarium in history. A different story (song) would have been sung. A different anti-hero would have appeared.

You speak with certainty about a legendarium which was not even complete. You state that the text hadn't been changed in years, yet you ignore Tolkien's own questions about the origins of Orcs (a subject which troubled him constantly) and the mysteries of Ainu reproduction (Shelob, Gothmog). The fact that he hadn't changed the manuscript tells us little since there is so much other writing from volumes 10 - 12 of HoME which could have been integrated into the text had the author been immortal like his Elves. Tolkien's tragedy was age... he ran out of the energy to focus on completion of the works.

CT in the forward admits as much in stating that he was not publishing a completed manuscript but giving us the most complete and cohesive group of works as he saw it.

Cheers,

grond

Your knack for making unsupported assumptions is astonishing. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's vision would simply have found another path to occur. In the end, Eru would have had his way. It is the case in every Legendarium in history. A different story (song) would have been sung. A different anti-hero would have appeared.

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I really cannot comment on your 'knacks' since I don't know you well enough to talk about them, though you seem to think you have a great knowledge of me, my ideas and my knacks, thanks for the attention.


How do any of your arguments contradict my statements? As far as knacks go in this thread, you are the one with the knack for making unsupported argument, writing all manner of claptrap about a kinstrife in Aman in which Feanor murdered Fingolfin, about how the Noldor would have fought with Sauron....I see a LOT of support for your arguments in Tolkien, hm..yes. Wheras as mine (which deal with Men and their nature) clearly don't have any support-oh, wait they are a recurring
theme throughout the books and Tolkien's legendarium, my bad, I have the knack for making unsupported argument, since you seem to think you know me and my argument so well. (Good for you.)

Tolkien could have wrote it a different way? Goodie for him. But he didn't. But then I guess I am the one who has the knack for making unsupported arguments, and you are the one with the knack for making unsupported alterations of Tolkien's myth, claiming this could have happened in this and that a way when it didn't-we are discussing Tolkien here right? Or perhaps we are talking about Grond's magical alteration of another persons work?

Inderjit S said:

Tolkien could have wrote it a different way? Goodie for him. But he didn't. But then I guess I am the one who has the knack for making unsupported arguments, and you are the one with the knack for making unsupported alterations of Tolkien's myth, claiming this could have happened in this and that a way when it didn't-we are discussing Tolkien here right? Or perhaps we are talking about Grond's magical alteration of another persons work?

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The problem is that you keep speaking of The Silmarillion as if it were an intended and complete work of J. R. R. Tolkien. It was not! It is merely an accumulation of tales assembled by the author's son and is as much a work of Christopher as it is of J. R. R. The author never determined the final compilation and C. T. could just as easily have included tales from U. T. and HoME in the text. You state that so many things could/would not have occurred but for Feanor and I simply state that the author could have written a different story because there never was a finalized legendarium that the author supported. (had there been one... it would have been published during his lifetime). I think, if you'll dig into all of the works (which it appears you already done) you'll see that Tolkien could not decide on a finalized version of his great mythology since there were so many inconsistencies and contradictions that the task of tying it all together was just too massive for him to undertake in his final years. After all, he finally had all the money he needed and was (IMHO) taking a very well earned vacation.

To address the premise of this (your) thread, I will agree that the published Silmarillion had at its very center the actions (be they good or bad) of Feanor. I will concede that he was a great elf (great for both good and evil during his time) and that the legendarium (as presented by C. T.) could not have occurred with any consistency or cohesiveness without Feanor's quest.

I will also state that, IMO, Feanor's path strayed from righteousness long before the kinstrife or the dreaded Oath. It began when he opened his ears to Melkor's whispers when he began to doubt his brother's intentions and ultimately the intentions of the Valar. I typically equate "greatness" to the propensity for doing great good, not great evil. Feanor should not be rewarded for his great evil behavior (failure to agree to surrender the Silmarils to the Valar, Oath, Kin-slaying, Kin-abandonment, yada yada yada) even though the said behavior ultimately led to great goodness (Beren/Luthien, all the other great things that happened because the Noldor came to Middle-earth).

In conclusion, Feanor's actions were ultimately evil which led to ultimate good.

Cheers,

grond

BTW, no personal insult was intended in my previous post. I have edited the post to delete the questionable content. My intent was not to degrade but to give cause for thought.

True he never intended to publish the Silmarillion (if he did, then I guess it would have been a work of 'men' and would have contained confused mannish myths) but the Silmarillion is still interwined in the LoTR-Beren and Luthien, Galadriel, Elrond, Gondolin, the Valar, Feanor and the Silmarils are all a part of the books.

I think that althought a flawed character, Feanor was also a very tragic one, remember he lost his mother before he went into adulthood, that was something which no Elf in Aman had ever had to deal with-though he was arrogant and had a fiery temper, I guess that is part of the reason as to why I like him, and the rest of the Noldor, especially the Finweans-he certainly wasn't evil, he was able to love, for example, nor did he ever converse with Melkor, and though he did believe his lies (passed on by others) he was not alone in doing so-Fingolfin and many other Noldor did so to, and Fingolfin was at least as proud as Feanor, if not as arrogant and conceited, I think you are 'following the path of Galadriel' (so to speak) in thinking that the darkness lay in Feanor only, when it in fact lay on the Noldor as a whole. On the kinslaying-Fingon was at least as guilty-Feanor did try to take the ships by force (an evil deed) but the killing only began after the Teleri began attacking the Noldor, and the Noldor attacked back-Fingon then thought that the Valar had gone back on their word and they had ordered the Teleri to attack them. Feanor at this time had been driven mad by the theft of his Silmarils, my the death of his father and lastly by Fingolfin's continual assertion to the kingship-even though he had told Feanor he would follow him wherever he went-and although this is no excuse of Feanor's actions, it at least makes you more emphatic for him. I hope his long sojourn in Mandos helped make him a better Elf. (Sometimes I do wish that him and Fingolfin weren't in strife and that they had gone to Beleriand as firm allies-somehow I think that even Morgoth would have had trouble fighting them-they would have at least have annilhiated his armies, but it was not to be, I guess.)