If Fingolfin is greatest swordsman, why does AI say Turin is greater?

Turin_Turambar · Apr 1, 2025

I repeatedly ask all the AIs who the best, greatest and most invincible swordsman in the history of Middle-earth is. And they all always answer Turin. Again, I asked the following question to the AI called ChatGPT-4o;
Who is the best, greatest, most invincible swordsman in the history of middle earth?

artificial intelligence's answer;
In the vast and mythic history of Middle-earth, created by J.R.R. Tolkien, there are many legendary swordsmen—elves, men, and others—whose skills are the stuff of legend. But if we are to name the best, greatest, most invincible swordsman, one name rises above all:

Túrin Turambar

Titles:

The Mormegil (Black Sword)
Master of Doom
Son of Húrin

Why Túrin?

Túrin Turambar, a mortal man from the First Age, is arguably the greatest human warrior in Tolkien's legendarium. His tragic tale is told in The Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin, and related texts.

Here’s why he stands out:

🗡️ Unmatched Sword Skill: Trained by elves, including Beleg Cúthalion, and later by the people of Nargothrond, Túrin became a master of the sword. He wielded the black blade Gurthang, reforged from the sword of Eöl the Dark Elf.
🐉 Slayer of Glaurung: Túrin killed Glaurung, the first and most powerful of the dragons of Morgoth. This feat alone places him among the mightiest warriors ever known, as dragons were nearly invincible.
⚔️ Warrior in Many Lands: Túrin fought under several banners—among elves, men, and outlaws—and was known and feared throughout Beleriand. He took on orcs, trolls, and even battled against Morgoth’s forces directly.
😔 Tragic Hero: His life was steeped in sorrow due to Morgoth’s curse on his family, but his defiance and heroism in the face of overwhelming fate make his legend even more profound.

Honorable Mentions

Fëanor – Greatest of the Noldor, though more famed for his mind and spirit than swordplay.
Fingolfin – Fought Morgoth in single combat and wounded a god—arguably the most epic duel in Middle-earth history.
Glorfindel – Slew a Balrog and returned from death.
Elendil & Isildur – Wielders of Narsil, vital in the defeat of Sauron.
Aragorn – Heir of Isildur, master of Andúril, and a peerless warrior in the Third Age.

🏆 Verdict

Túrin Turambar is Middle-earth's most invincible swordsman, not only in sheer combat skill but in the scale of his deeds, the strength of his will, and the tragic grandeur of his legend.

“Master of Doom by doom mastered.”
end of answer
Moreover, in Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth will kill Manwe and then defeat the Tulkas. Then he will be killed by Turin in a one-on-one fight. Despite all this, why does everyone say Fingolfin?

Elthir · Apr 3, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
Moreover, in Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth will kill Manwe and then defeat the Tulkas. Then he will be killed by Turin in a one-on-one fight. Despite all this, why does everyone say Fingolfin?

Aha! Did you think you could slip this in because it was April the First?

Vardarianna · Apr 3, 2025

Should it not be called 'AU'? (Artificial Unintelligence)

Turin_Turambar · Apr 7, 2025

Elthir said:
Aha! Did you think you could slip this in because it was April the First?

I'm sorry man, but that wasn't a joke. You know that it has never been clear and certain whether Dagor Dagorath is canon or not, that is, whether Tolkien removed him from the story.

Elthir · Apr 7, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
Moreover, in Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth will kill Manwe and then defeat the Tulkas. Then he will be killed by Turin in a one-on-one fight.

Well, again I'll just compare your interpretation to what JRRT actually wrote (The War of The Jewels):

"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the World; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

Moreover, even if the Dagor Dagorath was to survive within the "final" legendarium, it was re-characterized by Tolkien himself as a Mannish Myth, a story invented by Men. Thus, we aren't necessarily dealing with facts here, even within the legendarium.

🐾

Turin_Turambar · Apr 10, 2025

Elthir said:
Well, again I'll just compare your interpretation to what JRRT actually wrote (The War of The Jewels):

"In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the World; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged."

Moreover, even if the Dagor Dagorath was to survive within the "final" legendarium, it was re-characterized by Tolkien himself as a Mannish Myth, a story invented by Men. Thus, we aren't necessarily dealing with facts here, even within the legendarium.

🐾

Yes, but as I said, it was never certain whether Tolkien completely abandoned Dagor Dagorath or whether he returned to Dagor Dagorath. We do not know what was going on in his mind before he died. Tolkien died before he could complete his last writings.

Elthir · Apr 10, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
Yes, but as I said, it was never certain whether Tolkien completely abandoned Dagor Dagorath or whether he returned to Dagor Dagorath. We do not know what was going on in his mind before he died. Tolkien died before he could complete his last writings.

Very general statements. I'm responding however 'cause we know the Dagor Dagorath became part of a Mannish Myth, (even if it remained within the Legendarium), and because of the differences that I see between what Tolkien wrote (now provided above), and your interpretations.

You have:

1) Manwe being killed by Morgoth
2) Morgoth defeating Tulkas
3) Turambar fighting Morgoth "one on one"

But in my opinion, none of these three things -- that you at least seemingly presented above as if facts -- are necessarily true, again, given Tolkien's description.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 12, 2025

Elthir said:
Very general statements. I'm responding however 'cause we know the Dagor Dagorath became part of a Mannish Myth, (even if it remained within the Legendarium), and because of the differences that I see between what Tolkien wrote (now provided above), and your interpretations.

You have:

1) Manwe being killed by Morgoth
2) Morgoth defeating Tulkas
3) Turambar fighting Morgoth "one on one"

But in my opinion, none of these three things -- that you at least seemingly presented above as if facts -- are necessarily true, again, given Tolkien's description.

I had listened to the items you listed, in other words the events I mentioned, on a YouTube channel. They said what I said in a YouTube video that broadcasts information videos about Legendarium. I am putting the video below. You can watch it by activating the English subtitle option. Because the language of the video is Turkish.

Elthir · Apr 12, 2025

Got any videos with this guy in it?

I'll also listen to this guy.

🐾

Ricardo · Apr 12, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
I repeatedly ask all the AIs who the best, greatest and most invincible swordsman in the history of Middle-earth is. And they all always answer Turin. Again, I asked the following question to the AI called ChatGPT-4o;
Who is the best, greatest, most invincible swordsman in the history of middle earth?

artificial intelligence's answer;
In the vast and mythic history of Middle-earth, created by J.R.R. Tolkien, there are many legendary swordsmen—elves, men, and others—whose skills are the stuff of legend. But if we are to name the best, greatest, most invincible swordsman, one name rises above all:

Túrin Turambar

Titles:

The Mormegil (Black Sword)
Master of Doom
Son of Húrin

Why Túrin?

Túrin Turambar, a mortal man from the First Age, is arguably the greatest human warrior in Tolkien's legendarium. His tragic tale is told in The Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin, and related texts.

Here’s why he stands out:

🗡️ Unmatched Sword Skill: Trained by elves, including Beleg Cúthalion, and later by the people of Nargothrond, Túrin became a master of the sword. He wielded the black blade Gurthang, reforged from the sword of Eöl the Dark Elf.

🐉 Slayer of Glaurung: Túrin killed Glaurung, the first and most powerful of the dragons of Morgoth. This feat alone places him among the mightiest warriors ever known, as dragons were nearly invincible.

⚔️ Warrior in Many Lands: Túrin fought under several banners—among elves, men, and outlaws—and was known and feared throughout Beleriand. He took on orcs, trolls, and even battled against Morgoth’s forces directly.

😔 Tragic Hero: His life was steeped in sorrow due to Morgoth’s curse on his family, but his defiance and heroism in the face of overwhelming fate make his legend even more profound.

Honorable Mentions

Fëanor – Greatest of the Noldor, though more famed for his mind and spirit than swordplay.

Fingolfin – Fought Morgoth in single combat and wounded a god—arguably the most epic duel in Middle-earth history.

Glorfindel – Slew a Balrog and returned from death.

Elendil & Isildur – Wielders of Narsil, vital in the defeat of Sauron.

Aragorn – Heir of Isildur, master of Andúril, and a peerless warrior in the Third Age.

🏆 Verdict

“Master of Doom by doom mastered.”
end of answer
Moreover, in Dagor Dagorath, Morgoth will kill Manwe and then defeat the Tulkas. Then he will be killed by Turin in a one-on-one fight. Despite all this, why does everyone say Fingolfin?

My advice is, don't ask AI about Tolkien, they give you wrong conclusions, you correct them and they say you are right and show arguments to validate YOUR point.

No doubts that Turin was a great warrior, but I don't think he was trained in Nargothrond, he was already a great warrior by then.

Second, Glaurung wasn't Morgoth's most power dragon, maybe at the time he was but the most powerful would be Ancalagon (where would that put Earendil then?)

Third, the killing of Glaurung was more a matter of cunning than fighting abilities, he found a place where he could stab the dragon in his only vulnerable area when he passed through.

Warrior in many lands? nothing many other didn't do.

Tragic hero? true, but what does that have to do with combat abilities?

Isildur didn't wield Narsil, he only used the fragments to cut Sauron's finger off, just once.

Last but not least, they give honorable mentions to Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn, what about Beren, Tuor, Earendil, Fingon, Maedhros, just to name a few?

Also Ecthelion slew a balrog too.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 13, 2025

Ricardo said:
My advice is, don't ask AI about Tolkien, they give you wrong conclusions, you correct them and they say you are right and show arguments to validate YOUR point.

No doubts that Turin was a great warrior, but I don't think he was trained in Nargothrond, he was already a great warrior by then.

Second, Glaurung wasn't Morgoth's most power dragon, maybe at the time he was but the most powerful would be Ancalagon (where would that put Earendil then?)

Third, the killing of Glaurung was more a matter of cunning than fighting abilities, he found a place where he could stab the dragon in his only vulnerable area when he passed through.

Warrior in many lands? nothing many other didn't do.

Tragic hero? true, but what does that have to do with combat abilities?

Isildur didn't wield Narsil, he only used the fragments to cut Sauron's finger off, just once.

Last but not least, they give honorable mentions to Elendil, Isildur and Aragorn, what about Beren, Tuor, Earendil, Fingon, Maedhros, just to name a few?

Also Ecthelion slew a balrog too.

Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragon after Ancalagon. Also, Earendil did not kill Ancalagon alone. He killed him with the help of Thorondor, the lord of eagles. Turin fought with Glaurung after stabbing the dragon Glaurung in the belly with his sword. And he wounded Glaurung more deeply with the sword. So what Turin did was not just cunning. He also physically fought with the dragon after stabbing the dragon in the belly with his sword. Turin is the character who has traveled the most in Beleriand and fought under the most different banners.
Sindar Elves
Outlaw Men
Noldor Elves
Haleth Men
Moreover, Turin has experienced more events than all other Middle Earth character. There is no doubt that he is one of the characters that Tolkien placed in the most special place.

Ricardo · Apr 13, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragon after Ancalagon. Also, Earendil did not kill Ancalagon alone. He killed him with the help of Thorondor, the lord of eagles. Turin fought with Glaurung after stabbing the dragon Glaurung in the belly with his sword. And he wounded Glaurung more deeply with the sword. So what Turin did was not just cunning. He also physically fought with the dragon after stabbing the dragon in the belly with his sword. Turin is the character who has traveled the most in Beleriand and fought under the most different banners.
Sindar Elves
Outlaw Men
Noldor Elves
Haleth Men
Moreover, Turin has experienced more events than all other Middle Earth character. There is no doubt that he is one of the characters that Tolkien placed in the most special place.

We actually don't know if Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragons. Ancalagon wasn't the only winged dragon. Glaurung was the first and probably the most cunning and evil but we don't know about unnamed dragons.

I am not dismissing Turin's value as a warrior, by the contrary. The fact that he travelled a lot and fought under many different banners doesn't make him the best warrior, neither everything he went through

Ricardo · Apr 13, 2025

And yes, Earendil was helped by the eagles as well as the Vingilot being hallowed by the Valar and the silmaril, but still. Again, Ancalagon wasn't the only dragon in that fight although he is the centre of it.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 13, 2025

Ricardo said:
We actually don't know if Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragons. Ancalagon wasn't the only winged dragon. Glaurung was the first and probably the most cunning and evil but we don't know about unnamed dragons.

I am not dismissing Turin's value as a warrior, by the contrary. The fact that he travelled a lot and fought under many different banners doesn't make him the best warrior, neither everything he went through

It is often written or implied in the texts that Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragon. See the examples below.

Ricardo · Apr 14, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
It is often written or implied in the texts that Glaurung is the second largest and most powerful dragon. See the examples below.

this of course is not coming from Tolkien. Glaurung might have been the second biggest dragon, or not. Those are merely the named dragons, there were many others and it's possible that many of the winged dragons (all unnamed) could have been far larger.

the only things we know about Glaurung is that he was an uruloki (fire dragon), could not fly, was very cunning and had psychical powers, it's even speculated that Morgoth could talk through Glaurung.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 14, 2025

Ricardo said:
this of course is not coming from Tolkien. Glaurung might have been the second biggest dragon, or not. Those are merely the named dragons, there were many others and it's possible that many of the winged dragons (all unnamed) could have been far larger.

the only things we know about Glaurung is that he was an uruloki (fire dragon), could not fly, was very cunning and had psychical powers, it's even speculated that Morgoth could talk through Glaurung.

I don't think winged dragons were larger than Glaurung. The texts say that Glaurung was one of the most feared beings of the First Age. The books never imply that winged dragons were larger than Glaurung.

Ricardo · Apr 14, 2025

The thing is, I am based exclusively on what we know from the Silmarillion.

First of all, size is not necessarily related to ferocity or strength. Glaurung was a formidable dragon regardless.

We just don't know where he fits in the list in terms of size, he could well have been larger than Ancalagon minus the wings, there could be some other dragons larger than him, or not. There are no references to the other winged dragons, I just assume they were large because Ancalagon was, but no bases for that, the Silmarillion just says that Morgoth unleashed the winged dragons but only names and describes Ancalagon.

Glaurung is without doubt the dragon that caused the most pain, Ancalagon really didn't have the chance, but the fact that the winged dragons were able to push back the army of the Valar tells a lot of how powerful and terrible they were.

Whether Glaurung was third, second or ninth in size doesn't diminish Turin heroics, even with the cunning of hiding where he could struck the dragon's belly, I don't think many men, or elves would dare to do something like that.

forgetting the dragons, I think the reason the AI put Turin over Fingolfin was because Turin was known for being a swordsman and gurthang is very famous.

Fingolfin had a powerful sword, ringil but he wasn't depicted as a swordsman, more a warrior.

Turin also has more space in the Silmarillion than Fingolfin and his heroics are better described, both were extraordinary warriors however, I don't think you could compare a man, no matter how powerful with an elf that was born in Aman when the trees were still alive. That would apply to other elves, such as Fingon, Maedhros, Feanor, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and many others, the elves simply were above the men, at least in the first age.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 14, 2025

Ricardo said:
The thing is, I am based exclusively on what we know from the Silmarillion.

First of all, size is not necessarily related to ferocity or strength. Glaurung was a formidable dragon regardless.

We just don't know where he fits in the list in terms of size, he could well have been larger than Ancalagon minus the wings, there could be some other dragons larger than him, or not. There are no references to the other winged dragons, I just assume they were large because Ancalagon was, but no bases for that, the Silmarillion just says that Morgoth unleashed the winged dragons but only names and describes Ancalagon.

Glaurung is without doubt the dragon that caused the most pain, Ancalagon really didn't have the chance, but the fact that the winged dragons were able to push back the army of the Valar tells a lot of how powerful and terrible they were.

Whether Glaurung was third, second or ninth in size doesn't diminish Turin heroics, even with the cunning of hiding where he could struck the dragon's belly, I don't think many men, or elves would dare to do something like that.

forgetting the dragons, I think the reason the AI put Turin over Fingolfin was because Turin was known for being a swordsman and gurthang is very famous.

Fingolfin had a powerful sword, ringil but he wasn't depicted as a swordsman, more a warrior.

Turin also has more space in the Silmarillion than Fingolfin and his heroics are better described, both were extraordinary warriors however, I don't think you could compare a man, no matter how powerful with an elf that was born in Aman when the trees were still alive. That would apply to other elves, such as Fingon, Maedhros, Feanor, Glorfindel, Ecthelion and many others, the elves simply were above the men, at least in the first age.

Yes, you are right. Men are no match for the elves who saw the light of the two trees in Aman. But the point you are missing is that Turin is no ordinary men. His physical strength and sword skills rival those of the high elves.

Ricardo · Apr 15, 2025

Turin_Turambar said:
Yes, you are right. Men are no match for the elves who saw the light of the two trees in Aman. But the point you are missing is that Turin is no ordinary men. His physical strength and sword skills rival those of the high elves.

hmm I am not sure about that, Turin was an extraordinary warrior, but I am not even sure he was the best among men, there were others, his father Hurin, Tuor (he wasn't a swordsman, rather and axe man), Beren.

The effects of the light of the trees cannot be compared with anything men experienced, and especially someone like Fingolfin who wasn't just a high-elf, he was from a house of kings, and although Feanor was considered the strongest in body and mind, it's actually contradicted in the Silmarillion itself when it says Fingolfin was the physically strongest.

And even all the heroic acts of Turin pale in comparison with Fingolfin's fight against Morgoth. Glaurung was just a servant of Morgoth, while he was weakened, he was still a Vala, and Fingolfin matched him stroke by stroke, injured him multiple times and lost because quite simply, he couldn't win, not against Morgoth. The army of the Valar subjugated Morgoth, but they couldn't kill him.

Yes I know in the Dagor Dagorath it's supposed that Turin kills Morgoth, but the DD was abandoned by Tolkien, and in any case, the Turin described there was very different from Turin the man.

Turin_Turambar · Apr 15, 2025

Ricardo said:
hmm I am not sure about that, Turin was an extraordinary warrior, but I am not even sure he was the best among men, there were others, his father Hurin, Tuor (he wasn't a swordsman, rather and axe man), Beren.

The effects of the light of the trees cannot be compared with anything men experienced, and especially someone like Fingolfin who wasn't just a high-elf, he was from a house of kings, and although Feanor was considered the strongest in body and mind, it's actually contradicted in the Silmarillion itself when it says Fingolfin was the physically strongest.

And even all the heroic acts of Turin pale in comparison with Fingolfin's fight against Morgoth. Glaurung was just a servant of Morgoth, while he was weakened, he was still a Vala, and Fingolfin matched him stroke by stroke, injured him multiple times and lost because quite simply, he couldn't win, not against Morgoth. The army of the Valar subjugated Morgoth, but they couldn't kill him.

Yes I know in the Dagor Dagorath it's supposed that Turin kills Morgoth, but the DD was abandoned by Tolkien, and in any case, the Turin described there was very different from Turin the man.

It is not known for certain whether Tolkien abandoned Dagor Dagorath.

If Fingolfin is greatest swordsman, why does AI say Turin is greater?

Mormegil

Túrin Turambar​

Titles:​

Why Túrin?​

Honorable Mentions​

🏆 Verdict​

Cat in a Coat

Princess of Arnor and Gondor

Mormegil

Cat in a Coat

Mormegil

Cat in a Coat

Mormegil

Cat in a Coat

Member

Túrin Turambar​

Titles:​

Why Túrin?​

Honorable Mentions​

🏆 Verdict​

Mormegil

Member

Member

Mormegil

Member

Mormegil

Member

Mormegil

Member

Mormegil

Share this page

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency

Túrin Turambar

Titles:

Why Túrin?

Honorable Mentions

🏆 Verdict

Túrin Turambar

Titles:

Why Túrin?

Honorable Mentions

🏆 Verdict