Is there early version where Turin participates in Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

[Turin_Turambar]

Interestingly enough, when I asked a question to the AI named Poe, it told me about Turin Turambar and said that Turin participated in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad in early versions. However, it said this idea was later abandoned by Tolkien. Is this true? Are there early versions where Turin participated in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

It's not something I've ever heard of. Túrin would have been a child at the time of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.

 

[Elthir]

Turin Turambar is back! Happy to see you and take a shot at your question. Did this Poe give its sources? That would make things easier, but anyway I did some delving for the fun of it, and so far, my short answer is: no.

my longer answer appears below the following line for some reason
__________

Going way back to Tolkien's Tale of Turambar (Turambar And The Foalóke), when Úrin (Húrin ) went to battle, Túrin remained behind with Mavwin (Morwen) for he was not yet "war-high".

Some confusion might arise from a couple of outlines for the continuation of The Book Of Lost Tales (see Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli) in which we find the following wording A) "the children of Úrin (Sons of Úrin)" alone of Men fought to the last, and none save two messengers came out of the fray -- and B) (a later outline) the "sons of Úrin" alone stood fast until they were slain; but Úrin was taken.

If Tolkien really meant to include Túrin here, it would seem he did not survive! But I'd say (see below) that these notes were written after the Tale of Túrin, in which, as I quoted already, Túrin himself was too young, as Server Room Gremlin already pointed out.

Indeed I note Christopher Tolkien's commentary here: "But the people of Úrin are faithful, and do not survive it" [the battle], and again, Christopher states that the idea of the "folk of Úrin" being steadfast "already existed at this time in a tale that had been written (that of Túrin)"

Noting that Christopher Tolkien uses both "people" of Úrin and "folk" of Úrin, not "sons" or "children", as in the outlines.

Sooo, reading both Christopher Tolkien's commentary and commentary from the famed Tolkien Scholars Hammond and Scull, to my mind (so far) it appears confirmed that the story of Túrin being too young was already written before these notes, which again, appear to describe that the "children/sons" of Úrin die, except for (earlier version) "two messengers", and (later version), the "sons" of Úrin were slain.

Unless I missed something? If so, never mind

🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Turin Turambar is back! Happy to see you and take a shot at your question. Did this Poe give its sources? That would make things easier, but anyway I did some delving for the fun of it, and so far, my short answer is: no.

my longer answer appears below the following line for some reason
__________

Going way back to Tolkien's Tale of Turambar (Turambar And The Foalóke), when Úrin (Húrin ) went to battle, Túrin remained behind with Mavwin (Morwen) for he was not yet "war-high".

Some confusion might arise from a couple of outlines for the continuation of The Book Of Lost Tales (see Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli) in which we find the following wording A) "the children of Úrin (Sons of Úrin)" alone of Men fought to the last, and none save two messengers came out of the fray -- and B) (a later outline) the "sons of Úrin" alone stood fast until they were slain; but Úrin was taken.

If Tolkien really meant to include Túrin here, it would seem he did not survive! But I'd say (see below) that these notes were written after the Tale of Túrin, in which, as I quoted already, Túrin himself was too young, as Server Room Gremlin already pointed out.

Indeed I note Christopher Tolkien's commentary here: "But the people of Úrin are faithful, and do not survive it" [the battle], and again, Christopher states that the idea of the "folk of Úrin" being steadfast "already existed at this time in a tale that had been written (that of Túrin)"

Noting that Christopher Tolkien uses both "people" of Úrin and "folk" of Úrin, not "sons" or "children", as in the outlines.

Sooo, reading both Christopher Tolkien's commentary and commentary from the famed Tolkien Scholars Hammond and Scull, to my mind (so far) it appears confirmed that the story of Túrin being too young was already written before these notes, which again, appear to describe that the "children/sons" of Úrin die, except for (earlier version) "two messengers", and (later version), the "sons" of Úrin were slain.

Unless I missed something? If so, never mind

🐾

wow i really didn't know this text. can we assume that turin is one of the two surviving messengers in the text and that this version is the last version tolkien wrote before he died?

 

[Elthir]

can we assume (. . .) that this version is the last version tolkien wrote before he died?

It's kinda the other way round my friend! These two notes are very very early.

If one takes another look at Christopher Tolkien's commentary posted above, I note that he considers the wording in the two outlines to be a general reference to the people/folk of Húrin -- and with very good reason I'd say, considering that Túrin's tale had already been written, in which indeed the boy was not yet "war-high" -- meaning he was too young.

Túrin being too young for this battle is the story JRRT wrote through the decades; and it's the story he ended with, according to everything we have published so far (again as far as I know -- I know I nap a lot, but if Tolkien ever changed his mind here it would be news to me). It began with a tale written way back when Tolkien hadn't yet developed a Second or Third Age for what would someday be called "Middle-earth"!

can we assume that turin is one of the two surviving messengers

This is very, very, very unlikely to my mind. And I rarely use three "verys" in a row

I mean, even if one wants to say that Tolkien would have referred to Húrin's great son as one of "two messengers" that survived, you'd also have the unlikely scenario in which Tolkien had Túrin fighting in this war > which contradicts the story he'd already written for the same book!

Moreover, in the very next note, if one thinks -- due to the wording in the outline(s) -- that JRRT meant to have Túrin fight in this war, Tolkien then apparently has Túrin die???

This cannot be
said Elthir (that's me!)

I stress that the later outline (still very early, yet later than the "two messengers" note) removes these unknown messengers. As Christopher Tolkien comments: "But the people of Úrin are faithful, and do not survive it"

And as I say, these two texts are merely outlines for the continuation of The Book of Lost Tales -- in which (same book) Túrin is already said to be too young for this battle.

 

[Elthir]

Just for the fun of it, a touch of "background", along with some external chronology.

Just as the Finnish composer Jean Sibelius, Tolkien mined The Kalevala for inspiration. Gisele Schierhorst writes:

"The tone poem [by Sibelius] contains five sections that loosely retells Kullervo's story:
I. Introduction (The death of Kullervo's father in battle); II. Kullervo's Youth (Kullervo’s enslavement and murder of his master's wife through supernatural strength and magic); III. Kullervo and His Sister (Kullervo's search for a bride, resulting in the rape and suicide of his long-lost sister); IV. Kullervo Goes to Battle (Kullervo's search for glory through battle which results in the destruction of his homeland); V. Kullervo's Death (Kullervo’s lament of his miserable life and suicide by his own sword)." posted in 2019 at Stony Brook University/ Libraries

__________

JRR Tolkien may have been planning some version of Túrin's story as early as 1915-16 (according to Hammond and Scull), and Turambar "presumably followed [the Tale of Tinúviel] at the end of 1917 or in 1918".

This tale is for inclusion in The Book of Lost Tales > Tale of Turambar (Turambar And The Foalóke) in which, as noted already, Túrin is too young to fight at the battle of Numberless Tears.

Two outlines for the continuation of The Book of Lost Tales come after this tale of Turambar

Earlier outline: Húrin's folk die at the battle of Numberless Tears, except for "two messengers"

Later outline: Húrin's folk die at the same battle, no mention of messengers surviving.

The Book of Lost Tales is never completed.

__________

Alliterative Children of Húrin (poetry), left incomplete, abandoned at the end of 1924

"Sketch of the mythology with especial reference to the "Children of Húrin" > 1926

Qenta Noldorinwa > 1930

A later Silmarillion (partial version) -- Quenta Silmarillion -- JRRT's work on this basically ended in 1937, but while the text was away (sent to a publisher) Tolkien continued the narrative in draft form as far as Túrin's flight from Doriath and his taking up the life of an outlaw.

__________

Early 1950s (after publishing The Hobbit and writing The Lord of the Rings [generally speaking]), Tolkien began a new work on The Children of Húrin > he starts not with Túrin's childhood however, but with the latter part of the story, the culmination of his history after the destruction of Nargothrond.

Then we have a [Christopher Tolkien commentary] "mass of later but undated writing concerned with the story from Túrin's birth to the sack of Nargothrond" and "By far the greater part of this work, if not all of it, belongs to the time following the actual publication of The Lord of The Rings."

Anyway, as usual I don't mean to include [here] every text that ever referenced the story of Túrin, but one can see just how old The Book of Lost Tales is, by comparison. For examples of other texts, we have the Annals of Beleriand tradition of course, or The Wanderings of Húrin, apparently written at the end of the 1950s, or for an even later example, "Concerning The Hoard" > a manuscript enclosed in a letter dated 1964.

🐾

 

[Ent]

And here one sees why it is good to consult an @Elthir or equivalent on issues of depth and/or complexity - being prepaired with pencil and paper to make outlines and organizational charts capturing associations, dependencies, relationships and divergences - as well as to jot down references to source materials for further research and review.

[(or not, depending on one's proclivity toward the deeper research/study. A problem: many just want to say 'gust give me the answer.' problem is, often with Tolkien there is no real 'answer' other than 'I dunno' - or 'entirely uncertain.' (a translation of 'it depends on which point in his writing we may be referrring to.") As Sherlock would say, 'the fun is in the hunt.']

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I once asked an AI who Elenwe's father was and it said Turgon, so I don't really trust AI anymore. It also told me that Aragorn and Boromir are unrelated, seemingly ignoring Pelendur's relation to Minardil (Pelendur is Boromir's ancestor and Minardil is Aragorn's ancestor).

 

[Elwing the White]

I mean, AI is pretty much ridiculous sometimes, so I don't trust much that it says.
I was able to convince it that Gandalf was a duck, so....

 

[Ashley]

I mean, AI is pretty much ridiculous sometimes, so I don't trust much that it says.
I was able to convince it that Gandalf was a duck, so....

And just how did you do that?

 

[Elwing the White]

And just how did you do that?

Patience, lots of patience, fake quotes from J.R.R Tolkien on Gandalf's duckness(?), and a made up nonsense backstory about how "Gandalf is a duck enchanted by Radagast to look like a wizard but is really a duck".

 

[Elthir]

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Turin Turambar is back! Happy to see you and take a shot at your question. Did this Poe give its sources? That would make things easier, but anyway I did some delving for the fun of it, and so far, my short answer is: no.

my longer answer appears below the following line for some reason
__________

Going way back to Tolkien's Tale of Turambar (Turambar And The Foalóke), when Úrin (Húrin ) went to battle, Túrin remained behind with Mavwin (Morwen) for he was not yet "war-high".

Some confusion might arise from a couple of outlines for the continuation of The Book Of Lost Tales (see Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli) in which we find the following wording A) "the children of Úrin (Sons of Úrin)" alone of Men fought to the last, and none save two messengers came out of the fray -- and B) (a later outline) the "sons of Úrin" alone stood fast until they were slain; but Úrin was taken.

If Tolkien really meant to include Túrin here, it would seem he did not survive! But I'd say (see below) that these notes were written after the Tale of Túrin, in which, as I quoted already, Túrin himself was too young, as Server Room Gremlin already pointed out.

Indeed I note Christopher Tolkien's commentary here: "But the people of Úrin are faithful, and do not survive it" [the battle], and again, Christopher states that the idea of the "folk of Úrin" being steadfast "already existed at this time in a tale that had been written (that of Túrin)"

Noting that Christopher Tolkien uses both "people" of Úrin and "folk" of Úrin, not "sons" or "children", as in the outlines.

Sooo, reading both Christopher Tolkien's commentary and commentary from the famed Tolkien Scholars Hammond and Scull, to my mind (so far) it appears confirmed that the story of Túrin being too young was already written before these notes, which again, appear to describe that the "children/sons" of Úrin die, except for (earlier version) "two messengers", and (later version), the "sons" of Úrin were slain.

Unless I missed something? If so, never mind

🐾

Hello, I just skimmed through the section you gave. From what I understand, when he implied that the children of Hurin joined the war, he might have meant Turin. But Tolkien might have died before he could finish it. I don't know, I'm not sure. Since English is not my native language, I sometimes have difficulty understanding it.

 

[Elthir]

Turin Turambar my friend, maybe see post 6 in this thread as well, for some dating.

Tolkien was a young man when he wrote (but never finished) The Book of Lost Tales. And these likewise early outlines refer to the people, or folk, of Húrin, not his actual "sons" (plural) or his "children" -- and to think otherwise would, for example with respect to sons, very arguably mean that Túrin was slain!

The following is a quote from the "later" of the two early outlines: "Men fled, and the sons of Úrin alone stood fast until they were slain; but Úrin was taken."

Obviously this cannot be Húrin's actual son(s). Sons here refers to the "people" of Húrin, which as I say, agrees with the story from The Book of Lost Tales, in which Túrin was too young.

In short: Túrin was too young in every version of this story (that I'm aware of) that Tolkien ever wrote.