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“It Always Had Been a Vast Globe...”

Just for fun I edited Tolkien's LQSI Valaquenta (we already have Tolkien's Round World Ainulindale), noting that I did not edit out the following reference to Este the pale: ". . . who walks not by day, but sleeps on an island in the dark lake of Lorien"

Posted in jest. . . but with sunglasses on :cool:

I've been known to sleep in the day too
 
Yeah, I agree, the main problem for me with the latest conception is the compatibility with the rest of the stories and I imagine (don't know) that it might have prevented Tolkien from going ahead. Similar to the stories about the parentage for Gil Galad, changing to Tolkien's latest ideas would have required changes to the Silmarillion, but not as big as the round world change.

The idea of 2 realities would help reconcile the different stories, but would still be a massive undertaking.
But the whole point is that the Round World cosmology barely requires any changes to the Silmarillion!
 
But the whole point is that the Round World cosmology barely requires any changes to the Silmarillion!
I disagree here.

Assuming that the round world cosmology also implies that the sun and the moon always existed.

What was the point of the lamps, or even the trees? I can see the trees as giving a different kind of light, like a divine or magical light, but light itself was already there.

If we remove the lamps, then the destruction of Almaren would need another cause.

There wouldn't be an outer sea where Ulmo resided, there wouldn't be doors of night.

Arien and Tilion wouldn't be needed.

The whole idea of the Sindar and other elves living in Middle Earth under the light of the stars wouldn't be true anymore.

the raise of the moon when Fingolfin set foot in Middle Earth.

The raise of the sun coinciding with the awake of men.

The Valar using the sun to confuse Morgoth.

Aman, before the downfall of Numenor would simply be another continent, like the Americas, that could be reached from both sides. We are only told of the protections the Valar put on the east of the undying lands.

If I weren't lazy and had the Silmarillion in front of me I am sure I would find more differences.

Plus, Christopher Tolkien himself said it, the changes would be too many, too big, I personally consider CT the best JRR Tolkien expert that ever lived (and for good reasons, he was his son after all).

And I must add I haven't found any CT's comment or quote that I disagree with.
 
I disagree here.

Assuming that the round world cosmology also implies that the sun and the moon always existed.

What was the point of the lamps, or even the trees? I can see the trees as giving a different kind of light, like a divine or magical light, but light itself was already there.

If we remove the lamps, then the destruction of Almaren would need another cause.

There wouldn't be an outer sea where Ulmo resided, there wouldn't be doors of night.

Arien and Tilion wouldn't be needed.

The whole idea of the Sindar and other elves living in Middle Earth under the light of the stars wouldn't be true anymore.

the raise of the moon when Fingolfin set foot in Middle Earth.

The raise of the sun coinciding with the awake of men.

The Valar using the sun to confuse Morgoth.

Aman, before the downfall of Numenor would simply be another continent, like the Americas, that could be reached from both sides. We are only told of the protections the Valar put on the east of the undying lands.

If I weren't lazy and had the Silmarillion in front of me I am sure I would find more differences.

Plus, Christopher Tolkien himself said it, the changes would be too many, too big, I personally consider CT the best JRR Tolkien expert that ever lived (and for good reasons, he was his son after all).

And I must add I haven't found any CT's comment or quote that I disagree with.
Sorry, but you are entirely missing the point I and Elthir have been making – IMO rather clearly – the whole time. Have you even read my article?
 
In case any administrator sees this – is there any way to make the opening message of this thread editable again? The version of my article there is very outdated now.
 
Sorry, but you are entirely missing the point I and Elthir have been making – IMO rather clearly – the whole time. Have you even read my article?
I did, but the article focuses mostly in probing that Tolkien never abandoned the idea or a round world, which I never disagreed with. You can even say that it was Tolkien's last thought on the matter.

What I disagree about is that it won't affect the narrative in the Silmarillion, again, CT said it would and I agree with him.

The idea of considering everything that happened at the beginning, including the Ainunlindale, the wars against Morgoth, the march of the elves, even the event in Valinor that led to the exile of the Noldor were myths, made by the Numenoreans, with some elvish lore but many mannish addictions and inventions IMO means fundamentally altering the Silmarillion.

Why? As I said early, that puts on a position of an historian, or a researcher studying old myths and their origins, not of a reader reading a wonderful fantasy story.

If we think of them as mere myths IMO, and I don't expect you agree, the stories lose substance. Everything written in the Silmarillion might not be true, or at least, might be different than what it's told (what the myths say).

There is a difference between describing something as it is, and describing it as an observer sees it, and passes it down to future generations.

Primitive humans might justly thought that Earth was flat, that's what they could see, that was the palpable reality, but not true.

If some people still live somewhere billions of years in the future, they might think the entire universe is just a bunch of galaxies (what they call the local group) because everything else would be too far to see, yet it would not be reality.

The only part that I find convincing is this:

t is notable that in this interview both the idea of Aman existing in memory after the Catastrophe and the fact that the world of his legendarium “always had been a vast globe” were confirmed by Tolkien publicly and not in his private writings. As was pointed out to me after the original version of this article was published, the mere mention of the world being “a vast globe” from the beginning does not necessarily contradict the old cosmology, in which the Flat Earth was encircled by Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean, both from below and from above, which resulted in the spherical shape of the whole world. However, given the rest of the quoted phrase, it seems obvious that the word “world” is used here to refer to the Earth as such with its navigable surface.
the idea that Arda was round, but set in a way that was flat to those who lived there. Maybe not exactly flat but with limits that they couldn't pass through.

That still leaves the problem of the sun and moon and the relation with the lamps and the trees. Again, you can say the lamps and the trees were mere myths, fair enough but that IMO and from my perspective would fundamentally alter the spirit of the story. I don't think I would have found it that enjoyable that way but that's of course a personal preference and wouldn't mean anything in terms of what Tolkien wanted to do.

Yet, even accepting all of that, we do know that Tolkien was revising the cosmology, sure, but do we know if he had thought it in the context of the whole story? You can say the Silmarillion wasn't published at that time and could easily be adapted, but would have Tolkien wanted to do that once he analyzed the whole thing? I don't know the answer to that.
 
Again, you can say the lamps and the trees were mere myths
No one said the Trees were myths. They were referred to in the Round World texts (even the core ones) many times and undoubtedly continued to exist in them as a real thing. In fact, in text II of Myths Transformed Tolkien even elaborated on their significance (and that of the Silmarils) by introducing a new story about the Holy Light given by Eru to Varda before her entrance into Eä.
the Ainunlindale, the wars against Morgoth, the march of the elves, even the event in Valinor that led to the exile of the Noldor
And all of these examples do not prove your point at all and only give me an opportunity to provide precise counterarguments. The Ainulindalë does not mention the late creation of the Sun and Moon in its published version and also has a Round World version explicitly mentioning their pre-historic origin; the wars against Morgoth were either sufficiently described in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed (the First War and the War of the Powers) or took place when the Sun was part of the existing reality anyway (the War of the Jewels); the Great March of the Eldar was in fact most exhaustively (by far!) described in a Round World text from The Nature of Middle-earth; the events in Valinor took place under the Dome of Varda and did not depend on the Sun and Moon at all (except the short period after the death of the Trees which was addressed in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed), and the latest narrative texts of the Quenta Silmarillion describing these events were in fact written with the Round World cosmology in mind and contain a couple of subtle references to it.
 
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No one said the Trees were myths. They were referred to in the Round World texts (even the core ones) many times and undoubtedly continued to exist in them as a real thing. In fact, in text II of Myths Transformed Tolkien even elaborated on their significance (and that of the Silmarils) by introducing a new story about the Holy Light given by Eru to Varda before her entrance into Eä.

I am not familiar with that story or I forgotten about it, I will look it up.
And all of these examples do not prove your point at all and only give me an opportunity to provide precise counterarguments. The Ainulindalë does not mention the late creation of the Sun and Moon in its published version and also has a Round World version explicitly mentioning their pre-historic origin; the wars against Morgoth were either sufficiently described in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed (the First War and the War of the Powers) or took place when the Sun was part of the existing reality anyway (the War of the Jewels); the Great March of the Eldar was in fact most exhaustively (by far!) described in a Round World text from The Nature of Middle-earth; the events in Valinor took place under the Dome of Varda and did not depend on the Sun and Moon at all (except the short period after the death of the Trees which was addressed in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed), and the latest narrative texts of the Quenta Silmarillion describing these events were in fact written with the Round World cosmology in mind and contain a couple of subtle references to it.
As I said, I am not familiar with myths transformed. You are right about the Ainulindale. But the question is, why didn't Christopher Tolkien include those in the published version of the Silmarillion?

And what about the lamps, do they exist in the round world version?

Notice that here I am not arguing but asking. What I like about this topic is that I can learn something new or maybe get a closer look to something that maybe I read and overlooked. When I was reading history of Middle Earth, sometimes I got tired with the constant repetition of texts very similar and probably I missed a few things.

Maybe, the published Silmarillion would have looked different if JRR Tolkien himself had published it, I guess we will never know.
 
@Elthir, you might be interested to know that I have found another hint in the latest version of the Quenta Silmarillion (LQ2) at it depending on the Round World cosmology (besides the mention of the Dome of Varda, of course): where the Annals of Aman states that “all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, and there was in Valinor no winter of death” (MR/99 §109), LQ2 states that “in Aman all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, and there was no winter of death” (MR/286 §58). The placement of “in Aman” has to be significant.
 
@Elthir, I am interested in your opinion concerning the following idea (just me pondering how the concept of a multi-perspective legendarium can be used to bridge gaps between people with different views on cosmology for practical purposes).



The following is mainly addressed to those who accept the Round World cosmology and the Númenórean transmission of the Silmarillion as part of their view of Tolkien’s world.

What can we do when it comes to collective projects, such as roleplaying games, where people with different views need to find common ground, and those who prefer the Flat World cosmology are in the majority? I believe this is a case when we can make full use of the concept of a multi-perspective legendarium by immersing ourselves into the tertiary world of the Silmarillion mythology.

Consider this: according to the final cosmology of Tolkien’s secondary world, the Elves know that Venus existed from the beginning of the world and could not be the Silmaril of Eärendil; yet inside the Númenórean Silmarillion, Maedros and Maglor still have their famous conversation about the Silmaril rising in the West as a new star. If we can enjoy reading these stories within such a framework, then we can also enjoy writing and playing them: there could have been many stories in Middle-earth inspired by the mythology of the Silmarillion. In this way we can have Elves who believe in the old myths while still holding to Tolkien’s final view (and our own). We can use this approach for roleplaying together with other people, when we need to. We can use it for our private projects, such as fanfiction, if we want to. This approach gives us a possibility not only to find common ground with those who prefer the Flat World cosmology, but also to look at the legendarium from different points of view that enrich our own experience and provide us with different options for our creative endeavours.
 
The following is mainly addressed to those who accept the Round World cosmology and the Númenórean transmission of the Silmarillion as part of their view of Tolkien’s world.

So. . . like three people on Earth? No wait, I know a guy in Norway. Four.

Apologies. Couldn't help myself.

What can we do when it comes to collective projects, such as roleplaying games, where people with different views need to find common ground, and those who prefer the Flat World cosmology are in the majority?

Hmmm. I don't know. I've never played any roleplaying games either. Are bribes allowed? ;)

Okay, obviously I've nothing intelligent to say here, but I didn't want you to think I simply ignored your post.

Flat-earthers. What can you do ;) ;) ;)

I did come up with the following statement however — in an earlier version of this response that also went nowhere — and although I can't be the first person to have thought of it, here goes:

Don't throw the Bird and the Baby out with the bathwater!

And I plan to use that, if it ever seems relevant to some argument.
 
So. . . like three people on Earth? No wait, I know a guy in Norway. Four.
This estimation is certainly too pessimistic. Judging by what I have personally seen, there are at least a few dozens scattered across different platforms. I could name 5–9 people, excluding myself, just on one Discord server (of whom 5 argue for the Round World actively). In one of the largest Tolkien-related communities on the most popular Russian social network, the Round World seems to be the consensus among the administrators. (I am one of them, but that was the case even before I joined the team.) Also I recently discovered by accident that my article had been translated into Chinese and made into a video on the Chinese analogue of YouTube without me knowing and apparently by someone whom I do not know.
 
Oh, sorry Amalcarin, I was just trying to be humourous with that number.

Emphasis on trying :)

And full disclosure: I do know a Tolkien fan from Norway, but never asked his thoughts about this subject.

Anyway, good to know the multi-perspective legendarium is flowering out there!

I had to google what a Discord Server is though.
 

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