Just a crazy theory...

A Ranger, dgoog911, please give me a quote, because I don't remember the things you mentioned from the books. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I want specific places to look to certify the theory or throw it to the garbage.

I don't remember Gandalf saying that now a weapon won't harm him. And if he did, what is the point in "killing" Gandalf, only to make him unharmed by any weapon later? Why not "making" him this way from the start? Something is fishy around here...

I have a feeling Gandalf-Iluvatar was pulling the strings all the way long without anyone knowing it...

BluestEye

Originally posted by BluestEye
I never thought about Alanys Morisette as Gandlaf, Jajajaja

Now, seriously, though it is always said that Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf - it always seems that Gandalf is cleverer, greater and even more powerful than the rest of the Istari.
So maybe the rest of the Istari didn't even know that Iluvatar is watching them from within...

BluestEye

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No it says in the sil that olorin was the wisest and also gandalf wasn't one of manwe's maia he walked in the gardens of lorien and spent a lot of time with neinna. Manwe new the heart most of iluvatar and he new gandalf didn't think he could beat sauron so he new he was the best for the job. He didn''t want to go but manwe new for M.E'S sake that he had 2 and iluvatar told him this.Also wouldn't it be the secret flame of arda not arnor?

Frankly, I don't think it's so mysterious or suggestive that Gandalf forgot his name.

He'd recently returned from an experience of great intensity. We can assume that the battle with the Balrog and subsequent "reincarnation" was the most incredible experience of Gandalf's life. When he returned to the mundane world, it's quite possible that his previous life in ME seemed remote and unimportant for a while.

It's a bit like you or I feel after we come home from a very exciting vacation... the little day-to-day details of our home and work just don't seem so critical for a time. Only in Gandalf's case, of course, the contrast was far, far greater...

I like the idea of Gandalf-eru. But I don't think it is the case.
Doesn't Gandalf say to the Balrog...
"I am a servant of The Secret Fire"

Why would Eru be a servant of his own fire?

I think that Gandalf is an ordinary maia who is serving Eru.

Anyway that is just my opinion, and it's open to change. Threads like this one can really get you thinking about things and challenging ideas that you thought were 100% correct.

Good thread BluestEye.

Well, if you got suspicious that someone might be god, just because they forgot their name you'd find plenty of candidates! Hey, after a heavy sesh the night before, I don't remember my name for at least the first hour after I get up the next morning!!!

Sorry Bluest, I'm probably being a bit boring but I don't really buy this one! When you've got a perfectly good explanation in the book, why create a much more elaborate one?

Thank you, Mormegil
As I said, Variag of Khand, this is only an idea I got while I was reading the Sil again, and I brought it to you to inspect this idea through your knowledge and experiance with JRRT's Middle-Earth. It is very possible that this idea is crazy, and that's the reason I named this Thread: "Just a crazy thought".

I don't have the FOTR right now with me (I'm in work)... are Gandalf's words realy: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire"?
This could change my idea for good

Thanks,
BluestEye

P.S.
I think also that this is a good thread, even if this theory belongs to the trash

Originally posted by BluestEye
Thank you, Mormegil
As I said, Variag of Khand, this is only an idea I got while I was reading the Sil again, and I brought it to you to inspect this idea through your knowledge and experiance with JRRT's Middle-Earth. It is very possible that this idea is crazy, and that's the reason I named this Thread: "Just a crazy thought".

I don't have the FOTR right now with me (I'm in work)... are Gandalf's words realy: "I am a servant of the Secret Fire"?
This could change my idea for good

Thanks,
BluestEye

P.S.
I think also that this is a good thread, even if this theory belongs to the trash

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He does indeed say this. The quote is:

I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.

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I agree this is a good thread.

Thanks V of K
So Mithrandir is the servant of the Secret Fire, of Iluvatar. And it is obvious that he weilds the Flame of Anor, because everything that came to Being by Iluvatar has got the Fire Imperishable within it. So all things come to the beggining. Gandalf is a Maia and nothing else (though it is a great thing indeed being a Maia).
Thank you for a beautiful thread.

BluestEye

Ok, so in the index of names in the Silmarillion

Anor: See Minas Anor

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In turn...

Minas Anor: 'Tower of the Sun' (also simply Anor), afterwards called Minas Tirith; the city of Anarion, at the feet of Mount Mindolliun

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Anarion was Isildur's brother, and Minas Tirith is of course the tower in the land of Gondor. So, the secret flame that Gandalf carries is the secret fire of Anor, of Gondor. Narya, the red ring was forged by Celebrimbor in Eregion. Eregion is a land at the base of the Misty Mountains, which is right smack in the middle of Gondor. The secret fire Gandalf reffered to was his ring, given to him by Cirdan. I'm getting all of this from the index of names in the Silmarillion. So, having resolved that the fired reffered to is not the 'Flame Imperishable' that particular connection between Eru and Gandalf is gone. There is actually a pretty good amount of textual evidence in Unfinished Tales about the Istari and about Gandalf/Olorin specifically. It's a whole chapter so I'm not going to quote it here, but it's there if you want to see how extensively Tolkien worked out just who Olorin was (an odd thing to do if the whole thing is a charade).

Bragollach, it appears that it is a little complicated than that.

When Iluvatar told the Valar about Ea, the World that he's going to make, he said:

"'And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.'"

Then, there is this paragraph that talks about the End of days and the Ainur...

"Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Both from the Ainulindale in the Silmarillion.

In the first paragraph that I mentioned we read that it is in fact Iluvatar who put the power of Being into all things that live. It is also said afterwards in the Sil, when Tulkas tries to make Beings of his own (the Dwarves):

"And the voice of Iluvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle.'"

of Aule and Yavanna

So only Iluvatar can put this Fire into Beings, and no one else can do the same thing.
The same thing is said about the Fire Imperishable (read my quote at the beginning of this Thread): that the Fire is only with Iluvatar. So it seems that the Flame Imperishable and the Secret Fire are different names for the same thing that only Iluvatar holds.
And, considering what is said in the first paragraph I've mentioned here, I don't think it will be the Ring of Fire that he will put in the thoughts of all in the End of Days...

In a second thought, the Secret Fire can be only a part of the Flame Imperishable that Iluvatar will give to the Ainur only in the End of days...

BluestEye

You know what, I just got it. I reread Gandalf's quote on the bridge of Khazad-Dum and I get it now. He refers to both the "Secret Fire" AND "the flame of Anor". I was mistakenly thinking he was reffering to one thing with two names (we all know how Tolkien loved to give his creations more than one name). Ok, so Gandalf serves the Secret Flame (the creative fire of Eru) and wields the flame of Anor. So, he's a servant of Eru and a ring-bearer. I'm still very reluctant to believe that Gandalf is more than a Maia (given that he says 'servant' as someone pointed out rather than 'master')
And in Unfinished Tales Tolkien wrote that

Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari-that is, higher in Valinorean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently next in order."

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One more from Unfinished Tales that I think you'll like:

Who was "Gandalf"? It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwe himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtowe of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manwe will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, whenMelkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olorin was his name. But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

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I like your idea, and the way your playing with possibilities, but it seems well outside of Tolkien's intentions that Gandalf was Iluvatar. Fun to play with, but really not very likely at all.

Hehehe, thank you, Bragollach, I realy enjoyed reading your messege. I realy liked it
I think my theory was truly a crazy idea, but as you said, it can be played easily because even from your quote:

"But of Olorin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf."

I guess this is the sentance that you thought I would like, and you are right, hehehe. To tell you the truth - I don't know what I think about Gandalf. I realy respect his wisdom and knowledge, and I like him very much because he is Good and he helps people. But I'm not sure I believe he was just a Maia. I think I will always be curious about who Gandalf realy was... And this mystery makes this story even more beautiful and magical, don't you think?

Thanks for a beautiful messege, Bragollach!

BluestEye

this is a reply to something posted a while ago, but here it is.

'Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,' he said, and the boice was the voice of their old friend and guide.' Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. . . '

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>>>Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe,
just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...

I was reading this thread & couldn't believe it took 2 pages before somebody (VoK) corrected the quote.

And Gandalf never says he can't be harmed, just that Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli don't have a weapon that could harm him.
When Denethor states that Gandalf may have withdrawn from the Nazgul Lord because he 'was overmatched', Gandalf responds 'It may well be."
He doesn't sound invincible to me (or himself) there.

Finally, where does it ever say in 'The White Rider' that Gandalf doesn't remember his name?
It's just that he's looking back, hasn't heard the name for a while as he's been falling for a long time, fighting a Balrog, dying & then 'weary from his struggle with The Eye'. And, then he goes to Lorien, where they call him Mithrandir, or as in 'Many Partings' Galadriel, Celeborn & he just pass thoughts back & forth.

Therefore, the 'recalling of a name long disused' as he hasn't heard it before that moment since he fell in the pit.

Originally posted by Bucky
>>>Gandalf said to the Balrog in Moria that he holds the Secret Fire of Anor. Maybe,
just maybe, Gandalf is Iluvatar...

I was reading this thread & couldn't believe it took 2 pages before somebody (VoK) corrected the quote.

And Gandalf never says he can't be harmed, just that Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli don't have a weapon that could harm him.
When Denethor states that Gandalf may have withdrawn from the Nazgul Lord because he 'was overmatched', Gandalf responds 'It may well be."
He doesn't sound invincible to me (or himself) there.

Finally, where does it ever say in 'The White Rider' that Gandalf doesn't remember his name?
It's just that he's looking back, hasn't heard the name for a while as he's been falling for a long time, fighting a Balrog, dying & then 'weary from his struggle with The Eye'. And, then he goes to Lorien, where they call him Mithrandir, or as in 'Many Partings' Galadriel, Celeborn & he just pass thoughts back & forth.

Therefore, the 'recalling of a name long disused' as he hasn't heard it before that moment since he fell in the pit.

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It doesn't say that he forgot his name is says "gandalf, yes that was it, i was gandalf." I don't think he forgot is that much of a deal and i think he isn't iluvatar. If he was why not then challenge him (sauron) to a 1on 1 duel. Sauron would think he was stronger and would think he could get rid of his biggest threat there and then. Also when Melkor was in charge why not go then when the world was in a lot worse way.

>>>Also when Melkor was in charge why not go
then when the world was in a lot worse way.

That was Tolkien's final conclusion too.
Somebody quoted it earlier from UT.
If Manwe sent his herald, Eonwe to the downfall of Morgoth, why would he send a much more powerful being, himself, to the downfall of Morgoth's servant, Sauron?

Also, how could Saruman be more powerful than Gandalf if hwe was Manwe?
And before you say that they came in weak forms & were not allowed to match Sauron power to power, & it could be Manwe in a 'weak & humble' state, those conditions went for BOTH wizards, & Saruman is still more powerful under that guise.