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Looking for those of the Tolkien Religion!

I have found about 8 places in the Bible with variations on: "The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in mercy/love". This Lord is entirely compatible with the one in Tolkien's mythology (where would The Lord of the Rings be without mercy?).
faila said:
Why would a god choose to work through someone who didnt believe in him?
The Bible (especially the OT) is full of just such incidences. But the fact is that Tolkien was not just a nominal Catholic, he lived his religion: "I fell in love with the Blessed Sacrament from the beginning - and by the mercy of God never have fallen out again: but alas! I indeed did not live up to it. ... Out of wickedness and sloth I almost ceased to practise my religion - especially at Leeds, and at 22 Northmoor Road. Not for me the Hound of Heaven, but the never-ceasing silent appeal of Tabernacle, and the sense of starving hunger. I regret those days bitterly (and suffer for them with such patience as I can be given); most of all because I failed as a father. Now I pray for you all, unceasingly, that the Healer shall heal my defects, and that none of you shall ever cease to cry Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini." ("Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.") - Letter 250 1.Nov.63 to Michael Tolkien.

Despite the God of Middle-earth resembling the Christian God in character, the above does not sound like someone who would want the religion he created in Myth to be exported into the real world.
 
In my understanding letter #250 is one where Tolkien not only expresses his own doubts about his faith - after all it appears that he has been at least pondering to leave the church - but also openly questions religion, church and its proponents, the clerus.

So, IMO the part quoted above is hardly representative for the contents of Letter #250, apropriate maybe within the context of a debate where one wants to make a point rather than present some information in an unbiased way.
 
Fighting talk!

The letter is a response to a most despondent son, many miles away. Tolkien speaks mainly of the failings of Christians, whilst maintaining devotion to the Faith. It might be summed up in the quote "For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more - remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words. (...) You speak of 'sagging faith', however. That is quite another matter. In the last resort faith is an act of will, inspired by love. Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly and even sins of the Church and its ministers, but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons." The 'ifs' that Tolkien uses towards the middle of the letter, if you read it carefully, are hypothetical. Even skimming the letter, one must conclude that it would be unthinkable for such a man to write to a depressed, convalescing son in such terms if it were not to build the latter's faith up.

Though I am not a Catholic, having put myself under the care of Church pastors who turned out to be less than holy, causing more pain than healing, I can relate to Tolkien's words in this letter.

I am particularly fascinated by his claims for the emotional healing powers of the Sacrament. I have not tested his claim, being too idle to attend church every day to receive it (I think it is 7.00am on weekdays at our local Anglican Church), though I would love to hear the opinions of those who have. (There are those who would tell me that Anglican communion is not the real thing anyway, seeing as how that group were all excommunicated from the RC Church about 500 years ago.)
 
No, I have no desire for a fight or anything of the like, too high is my respect for you, your knowledge and your beliefs.

But I feel people are often reading their beliefs or thoughts into the words of an author they like. And when posts here get an "evangelizing" touch, I sometimes feel obligued to point out that a "theological" approach to Tolkien and his works is not the only possible way to enjoy his epos, and not necessarily the best or right one...

If there is one crucial sentence in this letter, it is

However, He alone knows each soul and its circumstances.

IMHO, that is, of course...
 
Sorry, did I get preachy? The Bible is to me what the 6.30 out of Paddington is to a trainspotter - exciting! The quote you give is, of course, the most important, and the truth that is most frequently overlooked. It also happens to be the one I am most grateful for.
 
This probably will be the only post I'll make in this thread.

First of all, I find it a silly idea to call "religion" the mere state of liking Tolkien's writings!
Second, even that I don't find the Bible exciting from any other point of view but historical, or/and Christianity or/and any other religion truly and honestly contributing to the development of the human individual, I still know what these are about, I have a fair idea of their structure and function ... and I can't see too much a resemblance between THE God in the Christian religion and Eru - Iluvatar in Tolkien's mythology.
Tolkien's dieties were created as the fundamental elements any mythology would have. And in this, they are much more like pagan dieties than any of those worshiped in Christian religion.

As for sins and their absolution ... Ask a most fanaticly faithful Conquistador after having slain a village of Indians and after having robbed the dead bodies from all the gold he could've found on them, after which he has gone and destroyed the temples and the constructions of a civilization ages older than his own... :rolleyes: What if he repents?! What if his sins have been forgiven? Will this bring back the dead to life? Will this bring back the demolished cultural and architectural sites?
 
Farewell

I am extremely disappointed at where this thread is going. This is what happens when I look for others of my religion. I will be leaving the Tolkien Forum :( Namarie, my friends, and may the Valar protect you.
 
Lhunithiliel said:
As for sins and their absolution ... Ask a most fanaticly faithful Conquistador after having slain a village of Indians and after having robbed the dead bodies from all the gold he could've found on them, after which he has gone and destroyed the temples and the constructions of a civilization ages older than his own... :rolleyes: What if he repents?! What if his sins have been forgiven? Will this bring back the dead to life? Will this bring back the demolished cultural and architectural sites?
This is probably the greatest similarity between real Christianity and Tolkien's Middle-earth religion. Even Saruman was offered mercy in the hope that he would find a cure; and as the hymn by Charles Wesley states: "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."

And Walter - I offer this for comparison, not to preach :p

I am sorry that Teledhelwen has chosen to leave such a rich Tolkien Forum because its members do not worship Iluvatar, but Professor Tolkien would have been apalled if we did.
 
Teledhelwen said:
I am extremely disappointed at where this thread is going. This is what happens when I look for others of my religion. I will be leaving the Tolkien Forum :( Namarie, my friends, and may the Valar protect you.
Any discussion concerning Middle-Earth religion or religion based on Middle-Earth is bound to get intertwined with Christianity - Tolkien's own religion. Your desire to leave the forum seems to me unreasonable and uncalled for. But if that is your wish I bid you a fond farewell and the best of luck in all your endeavours.
 
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Eledhwen said:
This is probably the greatest similarity between real Christianity and Tolkien's Middle-earth religion. Even Saruman was offered mercy in the hope that he would find a cure; and as the hymn by Charles Wesley states: "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."
An interesting point indeed! But Saruman was not to receive pardon from Jesus or anyone else. Not even Aragorn.

As interesting IMO - in this context (sorry for the lengthy quote, but the passage is IMO crucial to understanding Tolkien's stance on that issue:

...one thing he knew clearly: those days were heathen - heathen, noble, and hopeless.
But if the specifically Christian was suppressed,20 so also were the old gods. Partly because they had not really existed, and had been always, in the Christian view, only delusions or lies fabricated by the evil one, the gastbona, to whom the hopeless turned especially in times of need. Partly because their old names (certainly not forgotten) had been potent, and were connected in memory still, not only with mythology or such fairy-tale matter as we find, say, in Gylfaginning, but with active heathendom, religion and wigweorþung. Most of all because they were not actually essential to the theme. The monsters had been the foes of the gods, the captains of men, and within Time the monsters would win. In the heroic siege and last defeat men and gods alike had been imagined in the same host. Now the heroic figures, the men of old, hæleð under heofenum, remained and still fought on until defeat. For the monsters do not depart, whether the gods go or come. A Christian was (and is) still like his forefathers a mortal hemmed in a hostile world. The monsters remained the enemies of mankind, the infantry of the old war, and became inevitably the enemies of the one God, ece Dryhten, the eternal Captain of the new. Even so the vision of the war changes. For it begins to dissolve, even as the contest on the fields of Time thus takes on its largest aspect. The tragedy of the great temporal defeat remains for a while poignant, but ceases to be finally important. It is no defeat, for the end of the world is part of the design of Metod, the Arbiter who is above the mortal world. Beyond there appears a possibility of eternal victory (or eternal defeat), and the real battle is between the soul and its adversaries. So the old monsters became images of the evil spirit or spirits, or rather the evil spirits entered into the monsters and took visible shape in the hideous bodies of the þyrsas and sigelhearwan of heathen imagination.
But that shift is not complete in Beowulf- whatever may have been true of its period in general. Its author is still concerned primarily with man on earth, rehandling in a new perspective an ancient theme: that man, each man and all men, and all their works shall die. A theme no Christian need despise. Yet this theme plainly would not be so treated, but for the nearness of a pagan time. The shadow of its despair, if only as a mood, as an intense emotion of regret, is still there. The worth of defeated valour in this world is deeply felt. As the poet looks back into the past, surveying the history of kings and warriors in the old traditions, he sees that all glory (or as we might say 'culture' or 'civilization') ends in night. The solution of that tragedy is not treated - it does not arise out of the material. We get in fact a poem from a pregnant moment of poise, looking back into the pit, by a man learned in old tales who was struggling, as it were, to get a general view of them all, perceiving their common tragedy of inevitable ruin, and yet feeling this more poetically because he was himself removed from the direct pressure of its despair. He could view from without, but still feel immediately and from within, the old dogma: despair of the event, combined with faith in the value of doomed resistance. He was still dealing with the great temporal tragedy, and not yet writing an allegorical homily in verse. Grendel inhabits the visible world and eats the flesh and blood of men; he enters their houses by the doors. The dragon wields a physical fire, and covets gold not souls; he is slain with iron in his belly. Beowulf's byrne was made by Weland, and the iron shield he bore against the serpent by his own smiths: it was not yet the breastplate of righteousness, nor the shield of faith for the quenching of all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Almost we might say that this poem was (in one direction) inspired by the debate that had long been held and continued after, and that it was one of the chief contributions to the controversy: shall we or shall we not consign the heathen ancestors to perdition? What good will it do posterity to read the battles of Hector? Quid Hinieldus *** Christo? The author of Beowulf showed forth the permanent value of that pietas which treasures the memory of man's struggles in the dark past, man fallen and not yet saved, disgraced but not dethroned. It would seem to have been part of the English temper in its strong sense of tradition, dependent doubtless on dynasties, noble houses, and their code of honour, and strengthened, it may be, by the more inquisitive and less severe Celtic learning, that it should, at least in some quarters and despite grave and Gallic voices, preserve much from the northern past to blend with southern learning, and new faith.
It has been thought that the influence of Latin epic, especially of the Aeneid, is perceptible in Beowulf, and a necessary explanation, if only in the exciting of emulation, of the development of the long and studied poem in early England. There is, of course, a likeness in places between these greater and lesser things, the Aeneid and Beowulf, if they are read in conjunction. But the smaller points in which imitation or reminiscence might be perceived are inconclusive, while the real likeness is deeper and due to certain qualities in the authors independent of the question whether the Anglo-Saxon had read Virgil or not. It is this deeper likeness which makes things, that are either the inevitabilities of human poetry or the accidental congruences of all tales, ring alike. We have the great pagan on the threshold of the change of the world; and the great (if lesser) Christian just over the threshold of the great change in his time and place: the backward view: multa putans sortemque animo miseratus iniquam.21
But we will now return once more to the monsters, and consider especially the difference of their status in the northern and southern mythologies. Of Grendel it is said: Godes yrre bær. But the Cyclops is god-begotten and his maiming is an offence against his begetter, the god Poseidon. This radical difference in mythological status is only brought out more sharply by the very closeness of the similarity in conception (in all save mere size) that is seen, if we compare Beowulf, 740 ff., with the description of the Cyclops devouring men in Odyssey, ix - or still more in Aeneid, iii. 622 ff. In Virgil, whatever may be true of the fairy-tale world of the Odyssey, the Cyclops walks veritably in the historic world. He is seen by Aeneas in Sicily, monstrum horrendum, informe, ingens, as much a perilous fact as Grendel was in Denmark, earmsceapen on weres wæstmum... næfne he wæs mara þonne ænig man offer; as real as Acestes or Hrothgar.22
At this point in particular we may regret that we do not know more about pre-Christian English mythology. Yet it is, as I have said, legitimate to suppose that in the matter of the position of the monsters in regard to men and gods the view was fundamentally the same as in later Icelandic. Thus, though all such generalizations are naturally imperfect in detail (since they deal with matter of various origins, constantly reworked, and never even at most more than partially systematized), we may with some truth contrast the 'inhumanness' of the Greek gods, however anthropomorphic, with the 'humanness' of the Northern, however titanic. In the southern myths there is also rumour of wars with giants and great powers not Olympian, the Titania pubes fulmine deiecti, rolling like Satan and his satellites in the nethermost Abyss. But this war is differently conceived. It lies in a chaotic past. The ruling gods are not besieged, not in ever-present peril or under future doom.23 Their offspring on earth may be heroes or fair women; it may also be the other creatures hostile to men. The gods are not the allies of men in their war against these or other monsters. The interest of the gods is in this or that man as part of their individual schemes, not as part of a great strategy that includes all good men, as the infantry of battle. In Norse, at any rate, the gods are within Time, doomed with their allies to death. Their battle is with the monsters and the outer darkness. They gather heroes for the last defence. Already before euhemerism saved them by embalming them, and they dwindled in antiquarian fancy to the mighty ancestors of northern kings (English and Scandinavian), they had become in their very being the enlarged shadows of great men and warriors upon the walls of the world. When Baldr is slain and goes to Hel he cannot escape thence any more than mortal man.

Beowulf - The Monsters and the Critics
 
Eledhwen said:
This is probably the greatest similarity between real Christianity and Tolkien's Middle-earth religion. Even Saruman was offered mercy in the hope that he would find a cure; and as the hymn by Charles Wesley states: "The vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives."
I can't find the connection between my example and your statemnet, El!

And ... BTW, would it really be the right thing to call Tolkien's mythology a "religion"????
 
Your quote, Walter, is about Tolkien's views on Beowulf isn't it? The way I read LotR, the 'pardon' was unspoken, and came with the 'cure'. Gandalf offered Saruman a way out. His previous rank was no longer available, but he was offered fellowship. It seems to me that one who was considered 'reformed' was allowed back into the fold, being perceived as a changed person and no longer a danger. In this, Tolkien's myth goes further than the actual practices of modern Christianity.

And yes, Lhun; I am using the word 'religion' quite loosely - perhaps too much so, as it is the practice of deference to a deity that makes a religion, not the existence of said deity.

Beowulf's byrne was made by Weland, and the iron shield he bore against the serpent by his own smiths: it was not yet the breastplate of righteousness, nor the shield of faith for the quenching of all the fiery darts of the wicked.
This is interesting; for most of the British gods (who were barely distinguishable from men) were 'converted' into saints via the tales of monks who, unable to wean people off their gods, embellished or distorted the original stories with Christian content so the people venerated a Christianised figure. They were obviously pretty good storytellers, judging by the number of local saints dotted around Wales, Cornwall and Ireland.
 

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