Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)

[Lithóniel]

I agree with this, despite trying to keep an optimistic view coming into it.

Yes, that’s what I’m trying to do too, but I’m also making sure that I’m prepared for the worst also, so that when I see it I won’t be utterly disappointed or something like that. I just like making sure I’m prepared, but I’m still optimistic about it. 😊

 

[Nacilme Mapare]

I agree with this, despite trying to keep an optimistic view coming into it.

That is just fair, of course! I'm not even (trying to) be(ing) pessimistic here. The show might be good in it's own right and it will for sure be massively entertaining! On the long run we'll have to see what comes of it and I admit that I'm quite eager to satisfy my curiosity on this one! It's still based on Tolkien after all, if even remotely.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Yes, that’s what I’m trying to do too, but I’m also making sure that I’m prepared for the worst also, so that when I see it I won’t be utterly disappointed or something like that. I just like making sure I’m prepared, but I’m still optimistic about it. 😊

I understand that completely. I certainly don't expect it to be completely accurate nor a good representation of Tolkien. I don't doubt that it won't be. I am just trying to keep being optimistic, because there is no point in forming negative opinions about it, especially before I have even seen the show.

That is just fair, of course! I'm not even (trying to) be(ing) pessimistic here. The show might be good in it's own right and it will for sure be massively entertaining! On the long run we'll have to see what comes of it and I admit that I'm quite eager to satisfy my curiosity on this one! It's still based on Tolkien after all, if even remotely.

Yeah, I understand that. I am certain it will be entertaining too. On the lines of any agendas, from what I have seen, at least in the trailer, you really have to look and peer into it to find the reference of agendas or propaganda being pushed. Obviously, I cannot make any comment on the episodes of this show, as I have not seen any of them. I hope it is not too evident, and that they just try to enjoy Tolkien, and introduce more people to like his incredible works. Of course, this will be no Tolkien. Because it can't be. In all the literature I have read, and grant you it is much, I have not found a single work that I appreciate more than Tolkien. All the others seem to just pale in comparison, and all the others can become a bit stale to me, but not Tolkien. I can pore over Tolkien for hours, day after day and it never gets old. No doubt, this show will not compare to that at all. Yet, I have hope and promise, because it is Tolkien-related, and in the end, if you don't like it, don't watch it. It truly is that simple.

 

[Copia]

It was never about creating movies or series 100% true to the books.
Rarely anyone expect that (even the hardcore fans).

The problem is, when you create something from Tolkien works, and it looks just plain stupid.
If you strip out the fantastic visuals that Weta created for PJ LOTR movies, you will get very flat characters, unnecessary conflicts (that just look stupid) between characters, very pathetic looking drama scenes (with overused slow motion), characters that are totally opposite then in the books (example: Gandalf, that is always weak and tired, as opposed to the book Gandals that is always strong, charismatic and energetic).

The thing I never understudy is this:
You wanna action movie LOTR?
Fine.
Take Steven Spielberg, take James Cameron, take Mel Gibson as a director... these people know how to create these kind of movies, and they know how to create emotional scenes, and how to drive characters.

As I said previously, the saddest thing for me about this show, is that people would be actually happy if it replicated PJ LOTR, because majority doesn't see beyond nice visuals....

I will give this show a chance, for sure, but from my part, I REALLY hope to see some clever dialogue, nice developed characters, nicely done dramatic or emotional scenes... but from what I saw in trailers so far (especially dialogues), I am really scared.

I just want to point out that Im not happy as long as it replicated LOTR. And great visuals does not automaticly make a great show/movie. Just look at the abomination that is The Hobbit movies.

Also I dont want an adaption of the First Age/Silmarillion, but I kinda wish they had those rights, as then I dont think they would had to make their own stories as much.
As for example Finrod. He seemingly will have another death because they cant touch The Silmarillion.

PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.

We all are cautiously optimistic, Copia. Just some of us a bit more 'cautious' and some a bit more 'optimistic'. We're on the same page-- both metaphorically and literally..

 

[Radaghast]

All I can say is I'm not even a fan of Pee-Jay's films, and he had a strong framework off which to work (he had the same with The Hobbit but decided, for whatever reason, to stretch the story into an "epic"). I have little hope for a series where we know for a fact that characters and events that are not in canon will be heavily featured; will indeed make up most of the series since there isn't enough source material to cover a series of this scope.

I've never read fan-fiction (and never will). Why on earth would I want to watch it? In all fairness, I did see most of the Hobbit movies, though that only furthers my point.

What about the bizarre promos resembling hair product ads and soap opera intros would make me interested? Why should I feel thrilled about the randomly diverse (and blatantly tokenist) cast that makes little sense in the context of the source material?

And I think we've seen plenty enough — casting and dialouge, in particular — to form an opinion (the casting of Celebrimbor alone is enough to make me want to give this a WIDE berth).

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I personally cannot comment on The Hobbit films, since I have never watched them. I plan to, at some point, especially with all that I hear about them on this Forum, but I have not gotten around to it-- yet.

We all know it won't be canon. It never was advertised as a perfectly accurate representation of Tolkien's works-- that would be physically impossible to create. It is indeed then a "fan-fiction" that you are left with-- and if you want to watch it, you can, and if you don't, no one will force you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and since it has not even aired yet, opinions are just about the only thing we can form. No clear analysis can be made for it, or against it at this point, all that we have is the trailers, which we can form opinions about. That is all.

You don't have to be thrilled or interested at all even. We have seen enough to form an opinion on the trailer, yes. But not on the show as a whole. You can't judge something if you don't see it. You can have opinions on the trailer, and you can have expectations great or small about the actual show-- but in reality, none of us have seen it, so we can't really come to a true conclusion.

 

[Radaghast]

More by Disparu, examining and shredding an opinion piece the author of which bends over backwards trying to justify the forced diversity in the casting.

The author of this article does not back up any of his points or claims. I mean, the title does outright state it's an opinion, but it's still an biased and uninformed one. The author makes declarative statements assuming an air of authority that is not earned.

I want to highlight just a few lines given an idea of the wrongheadedness of it:

Those lamenting the supposed “race swapping” decision follow a similar thread. They often begin their polemic by pointing out that LOTR and other source materials composed by Tolkien contain occasional references to the pale skin tone of elven and Númenórean (ancient human) characters.

Furthermore, they claim that Tolkien intended his legendarium to become the Anglo-Saxon national mythology (this veracity of this claim is dubious), and hence its protagonists must be white.

The very statement that anyone makes this claim is dubious, meaning that anyone used the term "Anglo-Saxon" while making it. But, whatever words might be used by anyone, it's beyond doubt that Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for England. And, going through his letters, Tolkien refers invariably to Anglo-Saxon as a language rather than an ethnicity.

Anyway, the rest of the article is linked at the top for anyone interested in reading it.

 

[Annatar]

I have little hope for a series where we know for a fact that characters and events that are not in canon will be heavily featured; will indeed make up most of the series

I actually agree with you on almost everything.

Here, however, I would say that I would be very happy with a fanfiction and added invented characters, if it did not - as obviously in this adaptation - contradict the book originals in many things.

An added invented character in the sense of Tolkien would be completely okay for me, at least much better than a misrepresented character, who was actually described (differently) by Tolkien, but where on the one hand the rights of the producers to a work-faithful representation are missing - and on the other hand quite obviously also the will to implement it in Tolkien's sense free of any contemporary politics.

In the end, one really has to wonder why they chose the one part of the LotR appendices where there are the fewest details, while these details would all be found on other books, but where the rights are missing.

Well, those who can count to three can certainly guess the answer...

 

[Halasían]

PS. And dont shoot me down, Im not defending this series in any way. I cant as I havent seen it.
But I am cautiously optimistic, and I am looking forward to check it out.

It's sad that this even has to be stated in a 'discussion' about the series when someone says they are 'cautiously optimistic and am looking forward to seeing it.

I won't say anything more here on the subject. The discussions here on TTF is what it is.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

It's sad that this even has to be stated in a 'discussion' about the series when someone says they are 'cautiously optimistic and am looking forward to seeing it.

This is so true-- but in fairness, no one was actually 'shooting them down' it was simply a post out of caution. Everyone was entirely polite and kind, on this occasion.

 

[Radaghast]

I actually agree with you on almost everything.

Here, however, I would say that I would be very happy with a fanfiction and added invented characters, if it did not - as obviously in this adaptation - contradict the book originals in many things.

I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I think there are examples of fan-fiction even on this Forum. For more professional work, I would search the web, or even your library.

 

[Radaghast]

I meant to ask how often it happens in adaptations.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Oh, I see.

 

[Annatar]

I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.

I'm not aware of any such case. On the other hand, I don't know of a single case where the source material and rights situation is so absurd.

But I'd have some ideas what you could do, and even include diversity without violating the canon:

For example, a separate sub-plot in Harad. It's about a city that is to be subjugated by Sauron. A few (including the original king/mayor or whatever) resist, but end up succumbing to the intrigue and power plays, so some end up allying with Sauron and others with the (Black / King's Men) Numenoreans, etc.
Neither alternative would be particularly nice for the populace, but it would give Bezos his Game of Thrones series with all its intrigue and villains on all sides...

Or a sub-plot in Rhun with the Blue Wizards, who instigate uprisings against Sauron there through clever interventions...

(And of course, it would be just as moronic to randomly cast the original population of Harad or Rhun with actors who are clearly of European descent. That would be just as immersion-destroying as what Amazon is doing now.)

Under the given circumstances, I think it would have made even more sense to rely completely on fanfiction that plausibly integrates into Tolkien's world, instead of altering well-known characters like Galadriel, Miriel, Elrond, etc. to such an extent that it hurts.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I guess I would have to see a successful example of this to get an idea of how it could work. And I wonder how often it happens with other works of literature.

A recent example is Sanditon. There's even the parallel circumstance that the original story was unfinished.

And there's another example of an unfinished fantasy story being continued as fanfic

 

[Radaghast]

A recent example is Sanditon. There's even the parallel circumstance that the original story was unfinished.

And there's another example of an unfinished fantasy story being continued as fanfic

Haven't read the book Sanditon but I can see where such a character would fit. Another example is Ros from Game of Thrones.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Bingo.

 

[Radaghast]

Of course, that character had the input of the franchise creator himself, and was maybe even created by him.