Lord of the Rings on Prime Updates (Thanks Varking!)

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

It is interesting...

 

[Halasían]

*headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang* *headbang*

Hey Gandolorian, I didn't knw you were into going to heavy-metal concerts!
😆

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Irish Times:

Rings of Power: The new hobbits are filthy, hungry simpletons with stage-Irish accents. That’s $1bn well spent

After 20 minutes of this Lord of the Rings spinoff I’m having flashbacks to that EastEnders episode with the fightin’ villagers and donkeys walking the streets

www.irishtimes.com

I guess my question for the writer would be "D'ye ken wee Gimli, laddie?"

 

[Ealdwyn]

Irish Times:

Rings of Power: The new hobbits are filthy, hungry simpletons with stage-Irish accents. That’s $1bn well spent

After 20 minutes of this Lord of the Rings spinoff I’m having flashbacks to that EastEnders episode with the fightin’ villagers and donkeys walking the streets

www.irishtimes.com

Going back to this, I have to say I absolutely agree.

You guys outside the UK and Ireland might not fully understand the implications of this, but it is not a case of "comedy Irish accents haha!", this is racial stereotyping of specific ethnic groups that have historically suffered prejudice and discrimination. And not just the Irish and the Scots, but the people of Bronwyn's village are portrayed without exception as thick, evil northerners. You can't just insert a stereotype without fully understanding the complex social implications of that stereotype.

 

[Annatar]

And not just the Irish and the Scots, but the people of Bronwyn's village are portrayed without exception as thick, evil northerners.

As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...

 

[Ealdwyn]

As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...

They have a rather simplistic view of racism as a matter of skin colour. They clearly are have no conception that racism and discrimination against different white ethnic groups even exists.

 

[Aeltel]

As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...

All this stems from the “American Gaze” - its the root problem of the ROP and, to a certain extent Peter Jackson’s adaptation. The writers interpret the myth to suit their own main target audience and according to their own prejudices.

From an American point of view, “Irish” is short hand for rustic, mystic, underdog and, for some weird reason, proto-Amercian. ”Scottish” is short hand for comedic, aggressive and drunk. “English“ is short hand for villain. Apart from the dire script, it‘s this terrible use of accents that made me switch the show off - it is racist, pure and simple. Incredible when you consider how the producers have attempted to have colour blind casting, but that in itself is a symptom of viewing everything through the American experience.

To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)

 

[Ealdwyn]

All this stems from the “American Gaze” - its the root problem of the ROP and, to a certain extent Peter Jackson’s adaptation. The writers interpret the myth to suit their own main target audience and according to their own prejudices.

From an American point of view, “Irish” is short hand for rustic, mystic, underdog and, for some weird reason, proto-Amercian. ”Scottish” is short hand for comedic, aggressive and drunk. “English“ is short hand for villain. Apart from the dire script, it‘s this terrible use of accents that made me switch the show off - it is racist, pure and simple. Incredible when you consider how the producers have attempted to have colour blind casting, but that in itself is a symptom of viewing everything through the American experience.

To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)

It's Victorian Class System 101: the (clean, good, brave) Elves have their nice RP accents and anyone with a regional accent is some variety of dirty, simple and rustic. Dickens would have found it very familiar.

 

[ZehnWaters]

As a non-Brit, I don't know how far this really applies to the Irish or the Scots, but I see certain parallels with the Bavarians as far as these prejudices are concerned, maybe because our ancestors were also partly of Celtic origin? 😉
Bronwyn's village, however, is located rather in the southeast of Middle-earth, so it is all the more absurd that the unsympathetic idiots there are played by northerners, who should not actually live there. There are relatively clearly certain racist components here, officially under the label of anti-racism, of course...

That scene was so laughably transparent.

To have Lenny Henry (who should know better) affecting an Oirish accent when his own Dudley accent would have been far more appropriate is ludicrous. For the English to be written out of a story which was deliberately conceived to provide a mythology for them is a gross cultural appropriation. Why do the Americans insist that all myth has to be Celtic?! We know Tolkien tried to avoid a Celtic flavour in his work. Why use a Welsh name like Bronwyn when Tolkien was so precise in his naming (consider the etymology and layering of Bilbo Baggins for example!)

Because they're ignorant and ideologically driven. Why do you think they fired their original Tolkien scholar?

 

[Ent]

That scene was so laughably transparent.

Because they're ignorant and ideologically driven. Why do you think they fired their original Tolkien scholar?

Please. Let us not 'generalize'. I'm an American Ent, and I consider myself only mostly ignorant..!! 😟

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

We want to avoid politics here, if possible, but I'll say this: criticism of racial or ethnic stereotyping is legitimate. On the other hand:
1) It's been rampant in "Hollywood" since early days; look up "yellowashing", for example.
2) It's by no means limited to the film industry; "No Dogs or Irish" predates movies, by a long way.
3) Nor is it restricted to America, as Ealdwyn's mention of Dickens attests. As a matter of fact, Tolkien wasn't immune; for example, what dialect did he assign to the stone trolls?

As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?

 

[Aeltel]

Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.

 

[Aldarion]

As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?

Can't speak about others, but I definitely do. And I also have objections about Aragorn's character, Denethor's character, Faramir's character, Theoden's character... unholy Ring, is there one character Peter Jackson did not ruin?

But Rings of Power are far worse than anything PJ ever did. He at least mostly kept his ruinous meddling on individuals. Amazon however is clearly aiming to destroy the very soul of Tolkien's work.

 

[Aeltel]

We want to avoid politics here, if possible, but I'll say this: criticism of racial or ethnic stereotyping is legitimate. On the other hand:
1) It's been rampant in "Hollywood" since early days; look up "yellowashing", for example.
2) It's by no means limited to the film industry; "No Dogs or Irish" predates movies, by a long way.
3) Nor is it restricted to America, as Ealdwyn's mention of Dickens attests. As a matter of fact, Tolkien wasn't immune; for example, what dialect did he assign to the stone trolls?

As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?

I can honestly say that the Irish accents adopted by Pippin and Merry bothered me more than Gimli as they were used to undermine the English feel of the work and to present the characters as “stupid” (Jackson’s short hand NOT mine - see also the pointless “it comes in pints” stereotype) rather than the rather gentrified air they have in the novel.

Gimli, up until the “tossing” nonsense had some dignity. The orcs attracted comments at the time as they use Mockney accents. Being working class with a London accent this didn’t particularly bother me as I suppose I was reconciled to this from Tolkien’s own rendering of their speech and it was consistent with the work as a whole. The issue for me is that they have deliberately chosen to replace one form of stereotype with another and are unable to see how offensive the particular stereotype they have chosen is - both from a racial and artistic view point.

 

[Ent]

Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.

Not to worry. Aeltel. I rather understood your context...and was kind of trying to make a joke...but I don't think it came across appropriately. Perhaps the wrong "icon" was chosen, or whatever these things are...

There is no doubt that there are oceans of unfortunate 'stereotyping' done to achieve certain ends (to use one term, though significantly incomplete and well short of the full depths of it that exist.) And it's also true sadly, they leave a solid impression on many who wish only to be spoon-fed. (I think I wrote on this somewhere else.)

So I apologize if I left the feeling that I was insulted or otherwise hurt. (Though the issue of 'generalization' should probably always be avoided if possible, I would suppose.)

 

[Aeltel]

Not to worry. Aeltel. I rather understood your context...and was kind of trying to make a joke...but I don't think it came across appropriately. Perhaps the wrong "icon" was chosen, or whatever these things are...

There is no doubt that there are oceans of unfortunate 'stereotyping' done to achieve certain ends (to use one term, though significantly incomplete and well short of the full depths of it that exist.) And it's also true sadly, they leave a solid impression on many who wish only to be spoon-fed. (I think I wrote on this somewhere else.)

So I apologize if I left the feeling that I was insulted or otherwise hurt. (Though the issue of 'generalization' should probably always be avoided if possible, I would suppose.)

No worries (to adopt an Aussie idiom!) I‘m always conscious that ‘tone’ is very hard to convey on the internet and I really don’t want to upset or hurt anyone in life, let alone people who share my interests, so I just wanted to be doubly sure that the intent of my comment hadn’t gone astray.

 

[Ent]

really don’t want to upset or hurt anyone in life, let alone people who share my interests

I can't tell you how much I applaud and appreciate this mindset with associated lifestyle. (because it really is both, isn't it..!)

 

[ZehnWaters]

Please. Let us not 'generalize'. I'm an American Ent, and I consider myself only mostly ignorant..!! 😟

I apologize, I didn't mean Americans, I meant the people making the show.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Apologies Enting, the “American gaze” was a sweeping term that I intended to apply to the commercial and manipulative nationalistic simplifications used by some of the American media (and, of course, every country has its own version), not to individual Americans.

Japan has done similar. Though I find their stereotypes of Americans extremely humourous.

 

[Ealdwyn]

As I said, there are legitimate objections that can be made, but my question is, did the people making them have similar concerns about Gimli's character? Or is this just another convenient club to beat the series with?

I guess it's the difference between a character having a regional accent and the stereotyping of a group with that accent.
I've never seen Gimili as being a hostile and aggressive stereotype, which is how RoP is portraying their dwarves. It notable that both Gimli and Legolas are equally hostile to each other when they first meet in the Council scene. PJ's dwarves in the Hobbit are a diverse lot in terms of both accents and temperament.

The showrunners have made a big deal about how diverse and anti-racist the production was going to be, only to make specific decisions to stereotype certain ethnic groups. They have left themselves wide open for this kind of criticism.