The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming ‘the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tryanny and will), + his agenets’.² Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if ‘the Morgoth’ could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controlable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they caome at last to Utumno itself and find ‘the Morgoth’ has no longer for the moment sufficient ‘force’ (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he now has less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt this gaze.
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is ‘dispersed’. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentence only) he cannot bring himself to do it.
As soon as Gothmog merged the threads I deleted the post where I provided the link to the other thread, as it became useless.
I would say that Eonwe was one of the greatest of the Maia.
Eonwe sounds pretty tough to me.from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Maiar
...Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.
Ask and ye shall receive. Here is a thread where all of the different references to the Last Battle are summarzied.Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
...And by the way, there was another such thread and someone provided a quote from Home 10, quoting something like When Morgoth is free again at the end of World, Tulkas fights him with Tùrin on one side and another Maia on the other side. Can someone provide me with that link?
What is your reasoning for your conclusion?
"(since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)"
To me, this statement is a definite title contender for the single most horrific failure of the imagination that JRRT ever committed to writing. Instead of totally laying down their rule over Arda, the Valar could also have asked Eru to lift his ban against direct actions by the Valar against the Eruhini, at least for these specific ones, as their were products of Sauron's, and thus ultimately Melkor's, malice.
Item 1: Ossë, using a bit of wind from Manwë, could have reduced the whole fleet of Ar-Pharazôn's to splinters in nothing flat and drowned the whole lot.
Item 2: even allowing Ar-Pharazôn's armament to land on the shores of Valinor, it would have taken Tulkas, perhaps with a little help from Oromë and Eonwë, about five minutes to mop the floor with the lot. Any attempted interference from Sauron would have been dealt with by Tulkas with a back-handed slap that would have sent Sauron flying back to the eastern gates of flat Arda like a meteorite streaking through the atmosphere.
I don't agree with this statement. Eru was all powerful and could have done what he liked with any aspect of the Ainur's descent to Arda. What did Eru actually do? Nothing! He allowed Melkor to claim it for himself and the Ainundale gives us no indication that Eru picked Manwe for anything. I would state that in the beginning of Arda, Melkor would have wiped up the table against the other Valar. Tulkas was sent late to the game to even the teams.Second wild flight of fancy: think of Númenor. Yes, the original question (I think) says Melkor versus Manwë one-on-one. But by the time of the physical creation of Arda, there was not the slightest doubt about whom Eru thought, between the two, to be the sane ruler to keep this Arda business on track, and who the insane hooligan. So my guess would be that the one to get plucked up and given a massive thrashing on the backside - will definitely not be Manwë ...
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