My God, It Was Horrible (Part III)

Ooh, I hate being ignored! Now comes the part where Frank and I set fire to stuff....

No offense intended Rhiannon. As I recall you said the scene was somewhat flat. However, your position is relatively unique (to say the least). I also recall that you are the only one of a hundred members here to vote that RotK was "boring". And, IIRC, you also claimed to be mortified by the fact that Eowyn takes off her helmet too late in the Witch King scene, yet you still admitted you were cheering wildly. All this on the first day of release, and with you appropriately costumed. However, in spite of such strange behavior, even minority voices should be heard. So:

To Mrs. Maggott- I've seen dozens of mentions of the Ride of the Rohirrim, and, excepting one voice, they have been unanimous in their praise of the sequence, both as a match to the books, as well as a spectacular piece of cinema in its own right.

I hope I now escape the ire of the sock.

The sock has been placated Better make it two voices, since my friend agreed with me.

Now I'm going after Ol'gaffer. Tally-ho!

Mrs Maggot.

Has it occured to you that those who were satisfied with the film aren't so vocal in their opinion because they are in the majority.

What would you say if someone told you they chose not to read Lord of the Rings because they had read the Hobbit and decided that Tolkien was a writer of childish fantasies.

I CAN say that "without seeing it" because the ultimate source of that which I will (and won't) like is, of course, me!

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Of course it is, but you shouldn't vocally and publically pass judgement on that to which you are completely ignorant.

Rhiannon said:

*raises hand* I'm on record as thinking the charge could have been done better in the film. They kept stopping...it was weird.

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Rhiannon,

I don't wish to gain the ire of Frank but I think one problem here may be a different view of what constitutes the charge of Rohan scene in the movie. From reading Aragil's post I sense he is looking at the scene the same way I am. The scene starts with a view of the Rohirrim appearing on the brow of a rise (just after Gandalf hears their horns) and continues through Theoden's exhortation to the actual charge with the scene ending (that is changing to the actual battle) when the Rohirim cavalry smash into the orcs. I don't remember any stopping during that sequence. Yes, once they are actually engaged in combat we switch back and forth between what is going on in the battle and what is taking place in the city. I think all the actors concerned do a wonderful job going from looks of horror and defeat when they first come over the hill and see the size of the army they are facing to looks of courage and defiance as they charge crying "Death!"

Morgaphry said:

What would you say if someone told you they chose not to read Lord of the Rings because they had read the Hobbit and decided that Tolkien was a writer of childish fantasies.
....you shouldn't vocally and publically pass judgement on that to which you are completely ignorant.

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And, as I've asked before, what would you say if someone told you they chose not to read any of Tolkien's books because they had seen the TTT film, found it of inferior quality, assumed it represented the books, and deduced that Tolkien must be a poor writer not worth bothering with?
Mrs M doesn't need me to reply for her, but I will! She doesn't "pass judgement"; that's an absurdly extravagant expression for anything as trivial as a film. She comments specifically on those parts of ROTK of which she is NOT completely ignorant, but of which she has read reliable accounts here. I say that, because it applies to me also!

Rhiannon said:

The sock

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Can anyone enlighten us about all this liver, and these socks, this guy Frank, and now the hunt?

I don't wish to gain the ire of Frank but I think one problem here may be a different view of what constitutes the charge of Rohan scene in the movie. From reading Aragil's post I sense he is looking at the scene the same way I am. The scene starts with a view of the Rohirrim appearing on the brow of a rise (just after Gandalf hears their horns) and continues through Theoden's exhortation to the actual charge with the scene ending (that is changing to the actual battle) when the Rohirim cavalry smash into the orcs. I don't remember any stopping during that sequence.

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I think they should have skipped Theoden's speech, especially the little thing with the spears (the Anglo-Saxon version of the wave? weird). And once they did start charging into battle, they kept stopping so that Theoden could give orders. They should have just crested the hill and gone straight in, like the do in the book. Much more effective, I think. Also, I maintain that the semi-greyness of the sky in the film was insufficient. I think the opressive darkness is an important element of that scene, one that wasn't picked up on sufficiently in the films- other people may think it was fine, but since I didn't notice it being particularly dark, or any clouds parting, and I was looking for it, it wasn't clear enough.

Can anyone enlighten us about all this liver, and these socks, this guy Frank, and now the hunt?

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It started in the Great Members thread...It's all Arvedui's fault. Frank is the Sock. Frank is on my side. Frank hits people who are not on my side who happen to aggravate me, or just anybody who is on hand and might need to be hit with a sock, because you never can tell when someone might be in dire need of being hit with a sock...and Frank is now on the war path after Ol'gaffer, on account of he referred to me as liver.

joxy said:

She comments specifically on those parts of ROTK of which she is NOT completely ignorant, but of which she has read reliable accounts here. I say that, because it applies to me also!

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But you are both completely ignorant about ROTK since you haven't seen it! Not having seen it you have no way of knowing what is a reliable account and what is not. Mrs. M. has already shown her predisposition to accept negative reports, even when they are completely false. She even justifies that acceptance because of her bias. I certainly hope neither of you ever serve on a jury trial.

You frequently protest the use of the worth "hate" to describe some purists feelings towards the films, but lets look at the defintion from the Random House Webster's Dictionary (no I don't get royalties, it just happens to be the one on my computer ):

hate -- to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest.

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IMHO, as emotion that causes people who spend so much of their time attacking something they have never seen fills the bill of the definition of hate.

Rhiannon said:

I think they should have skipped Theoden's speech, especially the little thing with the spears (the Anglo-Saxon version of the wave? weird). And once they did start charging into battle, they kept stopping so that Theoden could give orders. They should have just crested the hill and gone straight in, like the do in the book. Much more effective, I think.

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No No NO!! In the book they do NOT crest the hill and go straight in! Mrs. Maggott just posted the quote! The Rohirrim come into view of the city and are completely overcome with horror and despair. Looking out on the field they see nothing but devastation and death. Also, knowing their numbers and knowing the forces arrayed against them, it is more than likely that if they charge that they too will be killed. The only 'rational' reaction for them at this point would have been to do what Tolkien writes as a possibility for Theoden:

Still they were unchallenged, and still Théoden gave no signal. At last he halted once again. The City was now nearer. A smell of burning was in the air and a very shadow of death. The horses were uneasy. But the king sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Merry himself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late! Too late was worse than never! Perhaps Théoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills.

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It requires all of Theoden's leadership to get them to charge. The Rohirrim were not automotons! They could be cowed, but they could also be encouraged. If Theoden had just sat there quietly then each rider would have been left to their own thoughts, which (I have to believe) would have been mostly of despair. Theoden focuses their attention, and encourages them. Hitting their spears with his sword is exactly what modern soldiers do when they hit eachother on the shoulders to get 'pumped up'. And most important are his words- which, now that I think back on it, are exactly as in the books, with the added chant of "Death!"
Once they were in the battle they only stopped once, and that was to reform the line in order to charge the Mumakil. Theoden's other orders are issued before the charge, and are word-for-word from the books, with the exception of the name "Gamling" replacing "Elfhelm"- even the name Grimbold shows up from the books!

Rhiannon said:

Also, I maintain that the semi-greyness of the sky in the film was insufficient. I think the opressive darkness is an important element of that scene, one that wasn't picked up on sufficiently in the films- other people may think it was fine, but since I didn't notice it being particularly dark, or any clouds parting, and I was looking for it, it wasn't clear enough.

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Most of the talk about the darkness in the books comes from three sources: the narrative voice, Pippin talking to Beregrond, discussions amongst the Rohirrim during their ride.
There is no narrative voice in these movies, and (unfortunately) the Pippin-Beregrond friendship has been removed. By all accounts, the Ride of the Rohirrim and the scenes with Ghan-buri-Ghan will be in the extended version, so perhaps we'll get more discussion of the darkness there. As it stands, we are left with Frodo and Sam's discussion of the darkness in the second scene of the movie, and with the general atmosphere created by the darkness. I'll admit that according to the books it probably should have been even darker, but that would have made half of the camerawork in the films quite impossible- so we get 'dim' sequences for the first half of the film, rather than 'dark'. That being said, the scene when the Rohirrim crest the hill is striking. They are in unadulterated sunlight- the first we've seen in the movie since Isengard. Down on the field of the Pelannor everything is still dark, and it looks more so because of the contrast with the light surrounding the Rohirrim. IMO this sublte use of the darkness is every bit as effective as the atmosphere created in the books.


ps For Greenwood:
OED
RHWD

All right, granted, I'm misremembering who stopped when, but I still say whatever they were doing with the Charge in the film didn't work. I think Theoden's speech should have been scrapped because- no offense to Bernard Hill- it was corny, or at least the thing with the spears was, which is mostly what I remember.
When I say they should have gone straight in, what I'm thinking of is that once they actually charge they don't stop again, which they do, or at least seem to do in the film. And in the book when they stop they're going through a ruined gate and getting the drop on the enemy. It all makes so much more sense and is so much more stirring; in the theatre all I could think was 'I am so not emotionally vested in this charge. Phooey.'

Mrs. Maggott said:

Ah! Then I have been misinformed!

The darkness was there to be broken as the charge took place with the grass flamed into color by the rising sun's reflection on the massed shields of the Riders!

And the Riders did arrive by stealth, creeping into the darkened battlefield just as Tolkien described!

And Theoden spoke the words that Tolkien wrote (as written in my post) and not some mish-mash of dialogue spoken either by other characters or at other times in the book!

And the song of the Rohirrim as they slaughtered the fleeing forces of Mordor blinded by the newly released light did carry to the City!

Oh, good! I'm glad! I was so afraid that it wouldn't be presented like that but as just another "recreation" by Mr. Jackson!

That is what you mean, isn't it? Or is it! Because if this scene in the film is not at least mostly as written in the book, then it is not going to please me no matter how "stirring" it may be. And, yes, I CAN say that "without seeing it" because the ultimate source of that which I will (and won't) like is, of course, me!

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...

Wow.

I, uh... wow...

...I think this post pretty much sums up the most extreme views from Tolkien purists; at least that I've ever heard of myself.

I could sit here and preach to you about how incredible the battles were, and how close they were to the books, and how I think they were an excellent recreation of the books. Or that I think the spirit was captured beautifully.

But reading your post, I think maybe the safest thing to do, is just suggest that you not bother with the movies at all. The book exists as it is, and the movies are a different medium that are what they are. There are millions of fans out there who are enjoying BOTH at the same time for what they are. I think you just fall into the contingent of people who will remain happiest with one version.

Not a slam or anything, I just don't think it'd be possible for you to enjoy ANY version of the movie, no matter who made it. It's not for you, so don't waste your time.

Rhiannon said:

All right, granted, I'm misremembering who stopped when, but I still say whatever they were doing with the Charge in the film didn't work. I think Theoden's speech should have been scrapped because- no offense to Bernard Hill- it was corny, or at least the thing with the spears was, which is mostly what I remember.
When I say they should have gone straight in, what I'm thinking of is that once they actually charge they don't stop again, which they do, or at least seem to do in the film. And in the book when they stop they're going through a ruined gate and getting the drop on the enemy. It all makes so much more sense and is so much more stirring; in the theatre all I could think was 'I am so not emotionally vested in this charge. Phooey.'

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Based on the general tone of your posts, I would say you were not emotionally vested in any part of the movie. No problem there- I have nothing against someone not liking or being bored by the movies. But I have a very hard time believing that anybody who was enjoying (or even mildly interested in) the film would say that this scene 'does not work'. In fact, I'll go on record as saying I don't think that any of the millions of viewers that have watched the movie were enjoying it up to this point, but then turned off by the charge sequence. You heard it here first.

As for the charge itself and the speech, these were identical in book and film. Theoden's speech is almost word-for-word what Mrs. Maggot posted a page or so back. If you found that corny, then your beef is with Mr. Tolkien. Incidentally, I thought Mr. Hill did a terrific job with the speech- if he had asked me to even I would have been ready to charge at that point. It reminds me of an anecdote from Two Towers, where Bernard Hill (as Theoden) gave a speech in the movie that was so stirring, so inspiring, that PJ decided to cut it out! Apparently it ruined the mood of despair that the director was trying to create!
The Hitting of the spears is something that a leader does in such a situation to 'fire up' the troops. If you find that corny, then your problem is with reality. I would bet that if you were to look into a medieval history book, or a book on cavalry warfare, you would find that this was a custom before going into battle.

The initial stopping happens identically in book and movie. The Host of the Rohirrim stream through the Rammas, and then assemble in formation on the Pelannor. In order to get into this formation, they have to stop and form up. This is the bit that I quoted from the books in my last post, and this is what we see in the movies. There is no charge until after Theoden gives the signal! Rather the point of having a signal, I would say.

In terms of the later stop by Theoden, this is to wheel the formation around. To give you an idea of how it works (don't know if you need the lesson or not), the Rohirrim assemble to the North of Minas Tirith, in a line running east-west. They charge perpindicular to this line- due south. This brings them right into the Middle of the Mordor forces- some are cut off to the West, between the Rohirrim and the city, others are left unfought to the East, between the Rohirrim and the river.
At this point the book and movie diverge, but I doubt many notice it. In the book Theoden is here killed by the Witch King, immediately after having overthrown the Chieftain of the Haradrim in a cavalry fight. The charge of the Rohirrim stops momentarily as Eomer dismounts to honor Theoden and recover the standard. He then reforms and charges South against the unfought Haradrim and their Mumakil.
In the movie Theoden is not immediately killed. Instead, as the Rohirrim charge south, the Mumakil line is established to the East, towards the River. The Mumakil line runs North-south, and thus charges towards the West. If it made contact like that, it would have taken the Rohirrim in the flank, and rolled up over their entire formation. For this reason, Theoden (who is in the middle of the Line), slows the charge, and commands for them to reform the line, this time having it Run North-south, like the Mumak line. The charge does not really stop- it wheels around. The left (i.e. East) side of the Line slows, while the right (West) side swings around to round out the formation. This all happens well (and I mean WELL) after the initial charge- there is no immediate danger to the Rohirrim during the maneover because all of the Orcs etc. in their immediate vicinity are fleeing beyond the line of the Mumaks. I repeat again, THERE IS NO STOP DURING THE INITIAL CHARGE. But then, perhaps one needs to be emotionally vested in the scene to take note.

Which type of LOTR fan are you?

Sorry, trying to bring a bit of humor to the situation. Alot of times it seems to be that if you expect sometime to fail, it inevitiably will prove to be insufficient. People came into FOTR with un-realistic goals and desires and left with the same measure of bias. Not exactly fair to ROTK, which was by far the best of the trilogy, cinematically. I guess PJ figured that TTT would just be something to keep people looking forward to ROTK anyways. Cinematically speaking, TTT was absolutely wretched and the timing and pacing of the movie left a whole lot to be desired. I can accept someone not liking a movie after having seen it themselves and thought through it, but it really baffles me to hear someone completely blaspheme a movie after not even viewing it and then expecting other people to listen to what they have to say in regard to the same.

By the way, it's not Peter Jackson's fault that people don't want to read the books. If they aren't exposed to it to begin with, they would never really have the oppurtunity to make that decision anyways.

The difference is that I went into FotR expecting to like it- and I did. I think my expectations were perfectly reasonable. I didn't like all of it, but I thought most of the changes were reasonable as far as storyline went, and I thought it was beautiful. Then there was the TTT travesty, but I still didn't hate it. I thought the EE improved things a lot. I thought RotK would fix the things it messed up.
It didn't. I loved FotR, I could live with TTT, or the EE anyway, but RotK I hated.

Aragil, leave the horse alone, it's quite dead. Conceded as far as accuracy, if you like, if only because I haven't been very clear. What I have in my mind is that once the Roherrim get out on the field and the enemy sees them, then they charge without stopping, because they have been sneaking up on them. In the film they just show up, making all these moving about rather pointless. And whatever the thing with the spears was, I thought it looked stupid. I read a fair bit about battles and I have never read about an historical equivalent.

Rhiannon said:

leave the horse alone, it's quite dead.

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Speaking of horses , I think I read, Rhiannon, that you are a horsewoman (or is that someone else?...). ANYWAY, a question that has been bugging me for a while is this.
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What's up with the way the horses are ridden in the movie? They are always yanking the bits/horses mouths' around and keeping the reins held so tight that the horses can't even extend their necks while running - as in the infamous Arwen chase scene. Any equestrians have thoughts on this?

Hmmm, I think I end up closest to a 'Code Red Fan...'

Rhiannon said:

And whatever the thing with the spears was, I thought it looked stupid.

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I loved it.

simbelmyne said:

Speaking of horses , I think I read, Rhiannon, that you are a horsewoman (or is that someone else?...). ANYWAY, a question that has been bugging me for a while is this.
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What's up with the way the horses are ridden in the movie? They are always yanking the bits/horses mouths' around and keeping the reins held so tight that the horses can't even extend their necks while running - as in the infamous Arwen chase scene. Any equestrians have thoughts on this?

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Heheh, noooo, Rhi is not a horsewoman...Rhi has a deep seated fear of horses...My friend and my sister are both horsewomen, however, and have complained long and loudly in my ear about the horse riding in the films. Raithnait in particular is driven mad by the fact that Arwen doesn't give her horse his head and is, in fact, holding him back.

I heard that sarumans part was cut from the movie for time reasons. But fear not, it'll be in the extended DVD.

Hey Beorn,

You should retract number 7 should't you from my thread here?

7 not 6

Which proves 7 not 6!