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My God, It Was Horrible (Part III)

Meselyn said:
I heard that sarumans part was cut from the movie for time reasons. But fear not, it'll be in the extended DVD. :D

Ah! The EE! That seems to be the clarion call of these films! Wait until the EE and then everything will be okay! Sorry, folks! What's in the theaters is what the Director chose to show to his largest audience including the folks from the Academy. With anything as central to the story as the resolution of the Saruman theme (after all, he is the main film villain!), we should not have to wait for the EE of any film. The fact that we do have to wait speaks volumes about just how well these films were conceived.
 
Mrs. Maggott said:
What's in the theaters is what the Director chose to show to his largest audience including the folks from the Academy.

And the "folks from the Academy" then gave it 11 nominations, the most of any film this year.
 
Gandalf White said:
And the "folks from the Academy" then gave it 11 nominations, the most of any film this year.

And why not? I'm sure it is a spectacular film. Furthermore, the loss of the Saruman thread would not affect ROTK, only the continuity of the trilogy as a whole - and as far as I know, they aren't giving awards for that.

Yet, once again as in FOTR and TTT, we here the call, "Wait for the EE!" That to me says something about these films; that is, that they are "incomplete" in their theater release edition and require the EE to make them "whole". With so much time and money available (the films are even in their theater version long!) one would have thought that Mr. Jackson could have done it right the first time and there would be no need to wait almost a year to see the film as it was supposed to be. In fact, he might have been able to do just that had he restrained himself from adding nonsensical plot threads to the story which, as we have been told countless times, was quite long enough. But apparently, even by the third film, Mr. Jackson had not learned that "less is often more".
 
Mrs. Maggott- more is always more. Even with the EE not all of the scenes are in the movies. When the complaint is "such and such a scene was missing" of course the clarion call is going to be "wait for the EE". Why should it be any different?

New Line made a huge investment in these films- if they failed the studio would have gone bankrupt. The extended editions of the films are of a length which probably would not have been succesful at the box office. Look at the number of complaints for the length of RotK from the general audience- and that was shorter than any of the Extended Editions. If the EEs were the ones that had been released, the studios would have stood a good chance of going bankrupt.

Does this excuse PJ for spending precious theatrical time on his heinous "additions"? It depends on what we're accusing him of. The theatrical editions were made with the mainstream movie audience in mind. Essentials were there, nice enriching details were left for the EEs. PJ never said he was going to make LotR exactly as in the books, there was always an understanding that they were going to be 'his versions'- that is, some of the scenes were going to be PJ's and not professor Tolkien's. When he said he was going to be faithful it was always to the "feel of Middle-earth" and the "spirit of the books". Accusing him of additions in my mind is quite ridiculous.

If someone wanted a photocopy of the Mona Lisa, then they should photocopy it. If someone instead wanted an alternative artistic interpretation to recreate the scene, then another artist would be called for. While someone may not like a Warg-rider battle going on behind the famous lady based on asthetic considerations, it should hardly be surprising that a new artist would insert their own "additions" into the work.
 
aragil said:
Mrs. Maggott- more is always more.
....there was always an understanding that they were going to be 'his versions'- that is, some of the scenes were going to be PJ's and not professor Tolkien's.
When he said he was going to be faithful it was always to the "feel of Middle-earth" and the "spirit of the books".
Accusing him of additions in my mind is quite ridiculous.
....it should hardly be surprising that a new artist would insert their own "additions" into the work.
We are always being told here what "the critics" say. One thing that most critics, of most subjects, sometimes say is: "this work would have been better if it were shorter". That is what the adage "less is more" means.
Scenes that are "PJ's and not Prof T's" may be "visions" but they are not "versions".
I don't know whether that was ALL he said, that he was "going to be faithful to the feel....the spirit of the books". The problem about that, though, is that he didn't stick often enough to what he said. Some of his inventions have the "feel" and "spirit", not of the books, but of the circus, or of that ancient "swashbuckler" film that I've mentioned before, probably ad nauseam.
You mean that "accusing" him of making additions is ridiculous, or that making "accusations" that the additions he made were bad additions is ridiculous? Calling such ideas "accusations" is hyberbole, and, either way, of course, I disagree. :)
I've said before, a few additions are to be expected, and if they are appropriate then they are acceptable - as SOME of PJ's inventions ARE -I've even given examples. ;)
Beyond the question of the quality of the additions, there are two points that refer specifically to these particular films:
We all know, and accept, that the source material is so large that omissions have to be made. Inventions take up time that could have been used for original material that "had to" be omitted.
This is the first serious attempt at filming what is unquestionably the most popular and best known literary work of the last century, and that work is renowned for its elaborate and precisely worked out plot lines and characterisations, and especially for its distinctive use of language. Because of those special characteristics, and because of what we heard from PJ, we expected, and believed, that the adaptations would deliberately, and exceptionally, prove to be "closer" than those given to other, lesser works. Our expectations, and beliefs, WERE realised, but only partially - it's the extent to which they were realised, or not, that is the subject of these discussions. The films could have set a standard; other "artists" could have been let loose on the material, later!
 
My dear Aragil! More is not always more as any fashion designer, interior decorator or makeup artist can tell you! In fact, "more" is frequently "less" if what you are speaking of is the excellence of the finished product (and that, in fact, is that to which I am referring - the excellence of the finished product).

The fact that Jackson's films remain critically acclaimed despite his egregious additions (wizard swinging, Osgiliath, warg riders etc.) does not make those additions in and of themselves "good". One wonders how much better they would have been had Jackson practiced some self-restraint. I certainly don't think that the rest of the audience would have missed them had they never been filmed, do you? However, perhaps you believe that these films are good because of such additions to the plot - in which case, I fear that we must agree to disagree on this point.
 
joxy said:
This is the first serious attempt at filming what is unquestionably the most popular and best known literary work of the last century, and that work is renowned for its elaborate and precisely worked out plot lines and characterisations, and especially for its distinctive use of language.

You npw's keep claiming that, but I (who just so happens to live in the real world where people don't wear gandalf hats and worship fictional stories) meet more people who never heard of this story than have, and 90% of those that have, only read it once and make many of the same errors about the book that the npw's do (IE, the role of the ancient sword in the death of the witch king). As far as preciesly worked out plot lines and characters goes..BAH! There are so many inconsistancies in this story, I find it laughable that you are claiming that and can still keep a straight face.

PJ's movie has saved this story from almost certain obscurity when it comes to the general populations exposure to it.
 
The Real World is excessively boring and increasingly not-worth my time. Fortunately I have a close circle of like minded friends. We read books and lead lives of quiet desperation. We'd start a revolution, but we're waiting until we finish the chapter.
 
You npw's sound like the crowd that spends saturday nights watching the rocky horror picture show.
 
I've never seen that.

This particular Saturday night I sat around and watched Labyrinth. Today I think I'll watch Pride and Prejudice, or maybe just skip to the particularly delicious Darcy scenes. Mm....Daaaarcy...

But, Foe-Hammer, what's wrong with that? Are you going to tell us that we need to get a life? Don't need one, thanks. I've seen what you normal people call "life" and I don't want it. It's boring and petty and cliched and often sickening. But if that's what people want- and apparently they do- then they can have their pre-packaged existence and welcome to it. I will sit over here with my castle made of books and recite The Princess Bride to myself and screech with mad laughter whenever any of the 'normal' people venture too close. I'm one of the Wyrd. What do you expect?
 
Rhiannon said:
I've never seen that.

This particular Saturday night I sat around and watched Labyrinth. Today I think I'll watch Pride and Prejudice, or maybe just skip to the particularly delicious Darcy scenes. Mm....Daaaarcy...

But, Foe-Hammer, what's wrong with that? Are you going to tell us that we need to get a life? Don't need one, thanks. I've seen what you normal people call "life" and I don't want it. It's boring and petty and cliched and often sickening. But if that's what people want- and apparently they do- then they can have their pre-packaged existence and welcome to it. I will sit over here with my castle made of books and recite The Princess Bride to myself and screech with mad laughter whenever any of the 'normal' people venture too close. I'm one of the Wyrd. What do you expect?

My dear Rhiannon, you disturb me! How can one apparently in the spring of life be so dismissive and contemptuous of it? I assure you that what you see "portrayed" as life in the entertainment industry (especially "reality" TV) is NOT reality at all! Life is beautiful albeit filled with tears and sorrow, because it is also filled with moments that are too wonderful to be described! Some people come very close to it in books (and that is why we love them), but I sincerely hope that you are not willing to settle for "second-hand" living of the life experience! I'm sure that you are beautiful (whether or not you meet today's shallow standards of that word) and have so much to offer. It would be tragic indeed if you removed yourself from that great pageant God has given us. Certainly, Tolkien - after a very tragic youth - did not do so. Hopefully, you will follow his example and live a life that is worthy of the gifts you have been given by God.

God bless!
 
Hey, I'm one of the 'Wyrd' too and I must say that I am pretty happy to be this way. I don't have many friends because I choose not to (two real friends is better than a hundred who will run out on you as soon as you're in the dumps). I do not go out because I choose not to (I hate the shallow and meaningless talk that goes on in bars, cafés and clubs). I regularly go to the theater alone because I enjoy it (even with lots of people staring at me for being alone). I choose not to have a relationship because I am in fact more whole and complete without one. I choose not to have children because I can't think of any reason why I should. I choose to share my life with animals rather than people because I feel totally accepted and natural when I am around them. I have no TV because I do not like to sit on the couch numbing my mind, instead I'd rather read a good book.

All of these are positive choices, not negative ones. I honestly do not understand the 'normal' people. There is no taste in their sort of life for me. I am bewildered by their priorities in life.

My life, though judged as 'boring' and 'reclusive' by many of the 'normal' people, is very fulfilling. I would say probably a lot more fulfilling than the life of those who do everything the way society expects them to do it.
 
My dear Rhiannon, you disturb me! How can one apparently in the spring of life be so dismissive and contemptuous of it?
What I am contemptuous of is what people call 'life'- which isn't life at all. The 'life' that limits people and puts them in a little plastic box. I want the life that you mean- the great, massive, wonderful and terrifying life. God doesn't call us to be drones in a vast emptiness. If 'living' means behaving the way people expect me to then I want none of it. They can call me anything they want and roll their eyes. That's their problem. And if the lense I see that life through is shaped by a fantasy novel, what's wrong with that? If my idea of life is running through a field reciting The Highwayman at the top of my lungs, who is to gainsay me?

You know you're truly compatible with someone when you illustrate what you mean in conversation by referencing Tolkien, and they not only know what you're talking about but answer in kind. If you have a few people you can do that with, who needs the acceptance of the rest of the world?
 
But you are not speaking of "life" but of some individuals' concept of it. You can find such people at all stratas economically, socially and politically. You can find narrow minded people totally lacking in imagination anywhere, anytime, any place. Of course you should not allow such folk to constrain your own lifestyle - unless of course, they are suggesting that you shouldn't play Russian roulette or bungee jump off a 200 foot cliff using a 201 foot bungee cord! But if you look round you will find those who appreciate the things that you appreciate and, most importantly, appreciate you for who you are as a person rather than your social and/or economic status.

However, having lived a good many years, please do not allow such people to "define life" for you. Be yourself, be kind, compassionate and good and you will gather round yourself people who will live the type of life you will find worth living!
 
But ordinary life is so boring.

you get up, go to work, come home, go to sleep.

repeat till you die.

where's the adventure in that?!!?

*sigh*

wish I lived atleast 300 years back in time. things were interesting then...

or then someone just transport me to Middle Earth 3rd age, now.
 
Relax, ya'll! The RHPS has a cultish following that dressses up and throws food at each other in the theater. You npw's just strike me as the type that sits around with their gandalf hats on wishing ME were a real place. Nothing personal was meant by it.
 
Mrs. Maggott said:
But you are not speaking of "life" but of some individuals' concept of it. You can find such people at all stratas economically, socially and politically. You can find narrow minded people totally lacking in imagination anywhere, anytime, any place. Of course you should not allow such folk to constrain your own lifestyle - unless of course, they are suggesting that you shouldn't play Russian roulette or bungee jump off a 200 foot cliff using a 201 foot bungee cord! But if you look round you will find those who appreciate the things that you appreciate and, most importantly, appreciate you for who you are as a person rather than your social and/or economic status.

However, having lived a good many years, please do not allow such people to "define life" for you. Be yourself, be kind, compassionate and good and you will gather round yourself people who will live the type of life you will find worth living!
But that is what I mean; I am doing so already. Gathering people who will live the same type of life, that is. Whether I'm being kind, compassionate, and good is perhaps in question, though I certainly hope I am being myself. True, at seventeen I am cynical and snarky and full of hormone-inspired angst, particularly against the opposite sex, but that's not preventing me from fulfilling my dreams (writing, reading, and travel- who needs anything more to dream about?). Being told I need to conform to someone else's idea of life, and court to 90% if the population, makes me crabby. I and my 10% will be over here reciting TS Eliot, if you need us.

I am very happy in my castle of books, guarded by Frank the Sock and screeching with mad laughter.
 
Foe-Hammer said:
Relax, ya'll! The RHPS has a cultish following that dressses up and throws food at each other in the theater. You npw's just strike me as the type that sits around with their gandalf hats on wishing ME were a real place. Nothing personal was meant by it.
Well I don't have a Gandalf hat, but yeah, something like that. We like to put a drop cloth in front of the TV and throw popcorn while watching movies, anyway. We frequent Renaissance faires. We enjoy period clothing, and archaic language, and folk music. And we have so much more fun than normal people.
 
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