My God, It Was Horrible (Part III)

[Mrs. Maggott]

I too, am anxious for you to read it so I wont have to continue explaining all this to you.

Well, I'll be happy to read your book, but I suggest that you first read mine: Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien. Good book! Maybe you've heard of it?

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Hey! That's the one I read too. Are you sure that you aren't being distracted by something while you're reading?

 

[Rhiannon]

You're sure you aren't confusing it with Bored of the Rings, FH?

Come to think of it, that might have made a better movie.

 

[aragil]

The Folk left back in the Stye in BotR were Bogeys, not Hobbits- so FH was probably thinking of LotR.

 

[Rhiannon]

I was JOKING. Joking! Humor! Hah!

Okay, no more attempts at being funny. If you need me I'll be over here in the corner cackling happily over my Terry Pratchett.

 

[aragil]

I thought I was being funny too. I always try to encourage BotR talk. In fact I think that Legolam should be a forum hero, just because of the user name she selected.

 

[Aldanil]

Ha Ha! He He! Hail We Humor! OR That's Prof. JRR TEE To You, Pal

I second the motion to make Legolam a Forum Hero (with Mint Sauce); our lassie's that rarest of witty creatures, the Edin-burra-hobbit, an ye dinna' ken.

"Comedy is Ever to be Encouraged," he opined pedantically; perhaps if yon Jackson had decided to adapt Bored of the Rings in the first place, we'd all be happier, and harried hard-working purists could afford to relax! Imagine the WETA shop's miniature of Minas Troney! Elijah Wood as Frito! Sean Penn as Spam!

One could larf and larf until one barfed, instead of (as with the present epic) clapping loudly with one hand and yet feeling queasy. . .


Still and all, not everything's funny, and there are indeed times when you just have to heckle. The rude "joke" that's below sure deserves to be jeered at, long and loudly, if it wasn't so sad:

Just another example of PJ doing a better job with the story than JRR did.

All the sadder a jest for being offered sincerely, here as in numerous other postings. Glamdring laddie, ha'e ye gone quite daft?

 

[Foe-Hammer]

We are all laughing at this thread. Me, because the npw's version of LoTR is mostly a version they have imagined. A version that has no flaws and is perfectly consistant in plot and character. That is perfectly understandable reaction on their part because they are missing a lot. And lest anyone think I am generallizing all npws, I'll list a few of the varying reasons. Some have their gandalf hat over their eyes, others are smoking too much "pipe-weed" and the air surrounding the pages of the book is cloudy. There are many who are at the point of swooning from the euphoric belief that they ARE in ME and their eyes are rolled back into their heads so far they cannot see.

I am happy that I can in a small way, bring some humor into your lives. (Thank goodness for you that humor has no requirement to be based on actual fact elsewise it would be a sad world indeed for thee.)

 

[Rhiannon]

I think Aldanil is funnier than Foe-Hammer.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

Actually, I got a huge laugh when Gandalf solemnly intones (deep, sonorous voice full of gravitas) "Thus passes Denethor....." while Jackson's guy is scampering the length of a couple of football fields burning like the liberty torch! The least the Wizard could have done (if he wasn't going to suggest that the Steward's erstwhile guards put Denethor out!) was wait until the fellow actually hurled himself over the cliff!! Of course, he wouldn't actually have gotten five steps burning as he was, but, ah, who cares? Thank God those who want to enjoy these films are able to ignore little things like accuracy (as well, of course, as the book on which they are ostensibly "based")!

 

[Thorin]

And lest anyone think I am generallizing all npws, I'll list a few of the varying reasons. Some have their gandalf hat over their eyes, others are smoking too much "pipe-weed" and the air surrounding the pages of the book is cloudy. There are many who are at the point of swooning from the euphoric belief that they ARE in ME and their eyes are rolled back into their heads so far they cannot see.

No offense FH, but the geeks you are talking about are not book lovers but movie lovers. Such a strange 'cult' phenomenenon is usually associated with movie goers (and in this case, it is definitely true. I came out of the theatre seeing 'Galadriel' smoking a cigarette) not book lovers.

Your NPW comments apply to extreme FADs, not lovers of Tolkien. Best get that straight before you paint us with a brush that applies to your ilk.

 

[Gandalf White]

Of course, he wouldn't actually have gotten five steps burning as he was, but, ah, who cares? Thank God those who want to enjoy these films are able to ignore little things like accuracy

I think "accuracy" is definitely the wrong word here. Perhaps you were looking for "believability"? Anyway, that's why I love Tolkien and enjoy the movies. There's a reality there, yet mixed with a touch of unbelievability that makes it so enjoyable.

 

[joxy]

....the npw's version of LoTR is mostly a version they have imagined. A version that has no flaws and is perfectly consistent in plot and character.

I've been offered roughly half of one flaw so far.
I'm still waiting for a fuller list of flaws and inconsistencies.
When I get them, they will still be completely irrelevant.
There will still be whatever percentage of the books that does not have flaws and consistencies, 99.9 at the very least, and that is the percentage that PJ should have used as his source material.
It is HIS whole array of flaws and inconsistencies that we are concerned with here. If his percentage of them were anywhere near as low as T's, we'd have no problem, and nothing to talk about, and laugh over (?)!

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I think "accuracy" is definitely the wrong word here. Perhaps you were looking for "believability"? Anyway, that's why I love Tolkien and enjoy the movies. There's a reality there, yet mixed with a touch of unbelievability that makes it so enjoyable.

Actually, no. If one is on fire as Denethor was on fire, I can assure you - you ain't gonna run two football fields and throw yourself off a cliff! To begin with, you would die of inhalation of superheated air even if your heart didn't stop from the shock your system sustained. Then, too, the man's head was saturated in oil. That means that his eyes would have burned out as well as his nose and throat. In all, he might have been able to run a couple of feet, but that's it! To show him running all that way at top speed is, in fact,
inaccurate as well as unbelievable.

 

[joxy]

To show him running all that way at top speed is, in fact, inaccurate as well as unbelievable.

It also sounds distinctly nasty, not something for PJ and his followers to be proud of.

 

[aragil]

No offense FH, but the geeks you are talking about are not book lovers but movie lovers. Such a strange 'cult' phenomenenon is usually associated with movie goers (and in this case, it is definitely true. I came out of the theatre seeing 'Galadriel' smoking a cigarette) not book lovers.

Your NPW comments apply to extreme FADs, not lovers of Tolkien. Best get that straight before you paint us with a brush that applies to your ilk.

LOL!
Rhiannon (the purist who posted two spots ahead of you) went to the film in full Eowyn regalia.
Not that I think that there's anything wrong with that for fans of the movie or purists, but you might want to take your own advice about getting things straight before you start your painting.
Open mouth, insert foot.

MM- I'm no expert on fire, but I do know that it is possible for the oil itself to be burned without causing immediate and irreperable harm to the person under it. This is what is actually done with the stuntmen in movies. I don't know what sort of 'oil' was available in Minas Tirith, but it is distinctly possible (IMO) that it did not permeate Denethor's skin, and thus would have given him a few seconds (or so) to run around before his own flesh began burning. Don't know about the super-heated air, though.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

I love all these "facts" and "truths" the npw pull out of their backsides to impress us all.

Anyone who knows the first thing about fire science knows that ALL materials must decompose before they will actually burn. This would give Denathor plenty of time to make that awe inspiring leap more than believable. But of course, you must approach such things without a chip the size of Gibralter on your shoulder. A feat that escapes the npw.

 

[joxy]

....all these "facts" and "truths"....
Anyone who knows the first thing about fire science knows that ALL materials must decompose before they will actually burn. This would give Denathor plenty of time to make that awe inspiring leap more than believable.

Who DOES know the first thing about "fire science"? You?
I know one or two things about chemistry, including the definition that burning, in the normal sense of the word, consists in substances combining with oxygen at relatively high temperatures. The word "decomposing" isn't usually included in the definition.
So, what do you mean about decomposing before burning, and what has that to do with making D's run and jump believable?
It's OK to know science, but you need to make it intelligible to us laypeople.

 

[Mrs. Maggott]

I love all these "facts" and "truths" the npw pull out of their backsides to impress us all.

Anyone who knows the first thing about fire science knows that ALL materials must decompose before they will actually burn. This would give Denathor plenty of time to make that awe inspiring leap more than believable. But of course, you must approach such things without a chip the size of Gibralter on your shoulder. A feat that escapes the npw.

What a crock! Denethor was already burning merrily when he began his Olympic torch run. At least in TTT, the orc was carrying the torch - he wasn't the torch! Denethor's face and head had been doused in oil designed to burn quite apart from his body. Remember the scene? I do! Ergo, whether the man or the oil was on fire, something was burning and not merely smoldering. That means that the man would have had his eyelids and corneas (at the very least) burned away; he would have been, in effect, blind. Furthermore, his nose and throat would have been seriously burned as he breathed in the flames. Even if his lungs weren't immediately affected, certainly he would not have been able to continue to breathe given the badly burned state of his nasal passages as well as his mouth and windpipe. Try running ten feet holding your breath (never mind in searing pain) and tell me how well you do!

Finally, why on earth would Gandalf and especially the Steward's personal guards stand around watching him burn without at least trying to put him out? In the book, Denethor thrusts the burning brand into the pyre and lays himself upon it. There really wasn't much of a chance to "put him out" since the entire pyre was burning with the man on top of it. However, a man burning apart from his surroundings can often be "snuffed out" by rolling him on the ground using cloaks (which the guards wore). They might not have been successful, but it is beyond belief that Gandalf and the guards would simply stand there and watch the whole thing without doing anything other than having the Wizard intone his all-too-premature obituary.

Frankly, the whole Denethor thread was considerably less than good quite apart from the book.

 

[Gandalf White]

I didn't like how Denethor ended up on the pyre, his run and consequent fall bore me no problems.

To show him running all that way at top speed is, in fact, inaccurate as well as unbelievable.

Is this the same way it's innaccurate and unbelievable to have a sword speak to a person with an actual voice?

Is this the same way it is inaccurate and unbelievable to have an 87-year-old man who is able to run approximately 13 leagues a day, for several days in a row?

We all know Gandalf was "stuck" in a man's body. He fell off the bridge in Moria along with the Balrog and the Balrog's fire burned him on the way down. He didn't die. They fell for a long, long time, so the impact of his body hitting the water should have killed him instantly. No! Since that didn't happen, the frigid temperature of the water should have stopped his heart. It didn't.

Tolkien's world is not necessarily bounded by the laws of ours.