No friends to the Edain

[Ithrynluin]

The History of Middle Earth XI: The War of the Jewels; The Grey Annals
Saeros... was of the Nandor, being one of those who took refuge in Doriath after the fall of their lord Denethor upon Amon Ereb, in the first battle of Beleriand. These Elves dwelt for the most part in Arthorien, between Aros and Celon in the east of Doriath, wandering at times over Celon into the wild lands beyond; and they were no friends to the Edain since their passage through Ossiriand and settlement in Estolad.

What do you think is the reason for all the enmity between the Nandor and the Edain?

 

[Confusticated]

The Nandor were as friendly with beasts and handy with trees/plants... close with the earth, as you can get. When they ask Finrod to tell Beor's people to get lost, they called men Hewers of Trees and Hunters of Beasts. Because of men's ways with beasts and trees the Nandor may not have beem too happy with them, yet the Noldor were no Nandor and the Nandor were friendly with Finrod. The Nandor were living a quiet secret life and the men disrupted that peace. I think men passing through Ossiriand would be like finding rats or venumous snakes in your house.

The Passage in the Chapter 'Of the Coming of Men into the West' where Finrod deals with the Nandor, is the best place I know of to get an indication of why the Nandor did not welcome men. There is also another passage elsewhere in the book... where it tells of Lenwe leading some of the elves away south at Anduin I think, a bit is said on the type of elves the Nandor are... this too can give us an idea of why they did not want men living in the forest that was their home.

 

[Maerbenn]

From HoMe XI: The War of the Jewels; ‘The Later Quenta Silmarillion’:

§11 Now the Nandor, the Green-elves of Ossiriand, were troubled by the coming of Men, and when they heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among them they sent messengers to Felagund. ‘Lord,’ they said, ‘if you have power over these new-comers, bid them to return by the ways that they came, or else to go forward. For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.’

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
The Nandor were as friendly with beasts and handy with trees/plants... close with the earth, as you can get. When they ask Finrod to tell Beor's people to get lost, they called men Hewers of Trees and Hunters of Beasts. Because of men's ways with beasts and trees the Nandor may not have beem too happy with them, yet the Noldor were no Nandor and the Nandor were friendly with Finrod. The Nandor were living a quiet secret life and the men disrupted that peace.

So do you think that the Nandor disliked/hated/wanted-to-see-gone the Edain just because they hewed trees and hunted beasts or was this a deeper hate, of the unknown perhaps? Do you think that the Nandor would be 'no friends' to the other races who had need of wood and hunting (e.g. the Naugrim or even the Noldor), if they happened to live in the vicinity?

Surely the Nandor also must have had need of food and wood and whatnot. How did they go about it that was so different from how Men did it? Were they more nature-friendly? Just less chaotic and wasteful than the Edain? More in snyc with Mother Nature than the race of Men?

I think men passing through Ossiriand would be like finding rats or venumous snakes in your house.

Rather harsh. That sounds like something Thingol would say, or a conceited Noldorin prince (e.g. Caranthir).

 

[Beleg]

So do you think that the Nandor disliked/hated/wanted-to-see-gone the Edain just because they hewed trees and hunted beasts or was this a deeper hate, of the unknown perhaps?

Nandor had had some contact with the Avari. And Avari had lots of contact with the mannish tribes before they reached the west of Beleriand, so if we take Tale of Adanel to be true, then all the men were fallen and possibly persecuted and went after Avari. This might have filled then with resentment against Humankind in general and they might have transferred elements of this hatred to the Greenelves. Sindar on the other hand would be unaware of such disputes since they lived far away from the area of trouble and Noldor because they dwelt in Aman.



I believe that hate/dislike was based on misunderstandings. Beren governed these folks later in the first age, now if the hatred against mankind had been inherent in them, they would never have accepted him as their king, whatever his relations and achievements might be: So that leads me to believe that they were fed with some kind of enemistic fuel against Mankind; possibly by the Avari.

But offcourse this also is based on the relative truthfullness of the Tale of Adanel.

 

[Confusticated]

I guess there might have been some battle between men and elves in the east, but we only hear of friendly relations - enough to have great elvish influence on some of their languages. It could be that it was only those men who forsook the Morgoth worship and headed west that came into contact with elves early on?

If we take the Grey Annals Chronology (The Sun coming when Fingolfin reached Middle-earth) then the Laiquendi probably did not know anything of men until Beor's people showed up in Ossiriand, since the Nandor reached Beleriand long before the coming of the Sun. The only way the Laiqeundi could have known of men is if some more Nandor or perhaps Avari crept into Beleriand in smalls groups after the Sun. The Nandor while in Eriador had heard of Thingol's realm, and it is my belief they learned of this from the dwarves (versus a few stray elves who snuck into Beleriand and went back and told). That is just to say that I do not think there was a lot of coming and going over or around Ered Luin on the part of the elves. In Quendi and Eldar we are told that some Avari had crept into Beleriand but Tolkien wrote against this later I am I read this somehwere... either Christopher commented on it, or provided some text where his father mentions it... but sadly do not remember where I read it... PoME perhaps? Please tell me where this is if anyone remembers? But yes, if Avari did creep into Beleriand before the Nandor did, then the Nandor may well have had contact with them in Eriador earlier on.

It could be that the Nandor, while in Eriador, heard of Thingol's realm from the Naugrim, and the host of Denethor was the only to reach Beleriand... that no other small groups reached Beleriand later on who could have told the Laiquendi of men.

Maybe more importantly, when the Laiquendi speak with Finrod, they mention nothing about rumors they had heard of men... they just call them 'strangers', and their words give me the impression that they were against Men for the reasons I gave in my first post, and not because they heard men had attacked the Quendi out east.


Regarding Laiquendi cutting trees and hunting beats... my belief is that they did not eat animals, nor cut trees.We also learn that they lit no fires, though this may only have been for reasons of secrecy. I may have no solid proof about them being vegetarians... it is just what I believe... but if they lit no fires, did they eat raw meat? I doubt it.

I mentioned in my first post they were friendly with Finrod, but I do not believe they would have welcomed some group of Noldor into Ossiriand. The Noldor were also hewers and hunters who would disturb the peace. Now had a few Noldor wanted to join the Laiquendi way of life I suppose they would be welcomed.

Surely the Nandor also must have had need of food and wood and whatnot. How did they go about it that was so different from how Men did it? Were they more nature-friendly? Just less chaotic and wasteful than the Edain? More in snyc with Mother Nature than the race of Men?

More close with nature than any other Eldar, I think. Remember they had more knowledge about beasts and plants than any others. I do not imagine Beor's people went around killing friendly beats just for sport, or chopping down trees for orcish reasons.... yet the Laiquendi didn't like this. I think it is important to keep in mind just how different these elves are from the Noldor and even the Sindar... especially those who mingled with Noldor or even those of Doriath who had the Naugrim metalworking influence (which is pretty much all of the Sindar... at least all the major settlements of them - Gondolin, Nervast, Falathrim, Doriath). But some of the Nandor did join Thingol in Doriath, so it can not be they thought all of this technology was evil... but it may well be that a lot of them did not aprove of it entirely even for other peoples, but surely the Laiquendi did not go in for that way of life. They all would have been welcomed in Thingol's realm but they chose not to, they would have been welcomed by Finrod, but chose not to... and probably even Caranthir and all of Feanoreans out east would have welcomed them... but the Laiquendi wanted their own way of life.

Rather harsh. That sounds like something Thingol would say, or a conceited Noldorin prince (e.g. Caranthir).

I do not think it is too harsh at all... men would be pests like rats and harm the land (The Laiquendi's home), and even put the Laiqeundi in danger like a venous snake. Caranthir was of the Noldor and had different reasons for not caring about men.

 

[Beleg]

I guess there might have been some battle between men and elves in the east, but we only hear of friendly relations - enough to have great elvish influence on some of their languages. It could be that it was only those men who forsook the Morgoth worship and headed west that came into contact with elves early on?

Could be, but it is also probable that Avari met Men while they still were under the influence of the 'master.'

Great Elvish infulence can be explained in that way, that before the coming of the master, they had some contact with the Avari, who taught them the basic of Phonetics and language, but later the 'master' came and their relations worsened and ultimately bordered on hate and resentment.

What I am trying to do is offer up an explaination of an [Outdated myth period] with an updated later myths which is radically different from that used in Quenta Silmarillion, so their might be a lot of contradictions.
My theory is not based on the Grey Annal or Quenta Silmarillion chronology.

In Quendi and Eldar we are told that some Avari had crept into Beleriand but Tolkien wrote against this later I am I read this somehwere...

Where? Must be in HOME 12 if it is 'later'. But I still think that Avari entered Beleriand 'from South'.

 

[Confusticated]

Okay... I found that reference I had in mind. It is nothing more than a mention that 'it is doubtful' that any Avari made it to Beleriand... in 'Of Dwarves and Men'.... hmm so I'm not sure what to make of it. CT only points out that Avari did reach Beleriand in Quendi and Eldar, and that Eol was an Avar in it... says nothing more.

What causes you to think the Laiquendi must have had bad dealings with men in the past or heard from some elves who had, rather than that they just didn't like having them in their land?

What about this: "and they were no friends to the Edain since their passage through Ossiriand and settlement in Estolad."

Had this dislike been caused by something in the past back in Eriador, shouldn't this say something like: 'and they were no friends to the Edain since their disputes with them in the East' or you get the idea... it doesn't seem to make sense. That and they did not mention it to Finrod, and Tolkien didn't mention it anywhere that you or I know of.

Why are you using Myth's Transformed?

 

[Ithrynluin]

Here is the quote from Of Dwarves and Men:

The History of Middle Earth XII: The Peoples of Middle Earth; Of Dwarves and Men
It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.

Comment 62. [In Quendi and Eldar (XI.377) there is a reference to Avari 'who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South', and to rare cases of an Avar 'who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar'; while in that essay Eol of Nan Elmoth was an Avar (XI.409 and note 33).]

The fact that Avari came to Beleriand is not only mentioned in Quendi and Eldar, but also in the Grey Annals (HoME XI).

So frankly, I don't see reason enough for this change, and I take it that some Avari did indeed creep into Beleriand. Tolkien also uses the word 'doubtful', he does not negate it straight away.

 

[Beleg]

Huh?

What causes you to think the Laiquendi must have had bad dealings with men in the past or heard from some elves who had, rather than that they just didn't like having them in their land?

When did I say that they didn't like him in their land? I was only giving another theory, another reason perhaps for their dislike.

What about this: "and they were no friends to the Edain since their passage through Ossiriand and settlement in Estolad."

Had this dislike been caused by something in the past back in Eriador, shouldn't this say something like: 'and they were no friends to the Edain since their disputes with them in the East' or you get the idea... it doesn't seem to make sense. That and they did not mention it to Finrod, and Tolkien didn't mention it anywhere that you or I know of.

You aren't seeing what I mean. You are saying that in my theory Liaquendi met with Men in the east while what I am seeing is that they heard from Avari about the Men, and this hearsay was poisonous and Avari disliked Men. Therefore this can be part [Of an untold] reason. I never said that GreenElves themselves Had saw Men.
Tolkien didn't mention a lot of things, if he had mentioned everything then there would have been very little margin left for formulating or theoriorizing. I never said my theory was Hard or written fact.
Frankly, I can't see a lot of hinderances to my theory.
It is very probable that Men met Elves before the 'Power' came, since Men already had a language and probably lived in a semi-civilized manner. It is also probable that they befriended some of the Avari and later persecuted them because the 'Master' said so. It is also plausible that Avari developed a hate for men, all men, because if we accept Tale of Adanel in Its entirity then more or less all men accepted Melkor as their master. It is also probable that some of the Avari wandering west met the Nandor and also spoke of them of Men and naturally passed onto them their dislike. Since Nandor hadn't met men so they had to depend on hearsay. It is also plausible this dislike was a latent feature in their future dislike of Edain, coupled with the fact that some of the edain were hunters and hewer's.

Why are you using Myth's Transformed?

Their are some concepts in MT that are mere joltings, while there are some that are fully developed Ideas as Tolkien actually tried to interpolate them in the legendarium. [For example the earlier sun and moon theory presented in Ainulindale version C*? (I am not sure of the version name right now, correct me if I am wrong.) and the Men waking earlier theory given in Athrabeth].
I take the later Idea as a fully established one which given Tolkien had the time or will, would have been extrapolated in the tales.

 

[Inderjit S]

The Nandor were in nature a secretive, even 'hostile' race.

Some of the Nandor, who were allowed to be Celbin, were not any better. Saeros, a counsellor of King Thingol, who belonged to a small clan of Nandor living in eastern Doriath, was chiefly responsible for the driving into outlawry of Túrin son of Húrin. Túrin's mother was named Morwen 'dark maiden', because of her dark hair, and it was one of Saeros' worst insults to call her Morben. For that Túrin smote him in the king's hall

Quendi and Eldar; HoME 11

They also heard tales of a strange race in the East. This race were held to be 'evil' or at the very least bad-natured. So they would have a inherent mistrust of these 'Men' because of the stories that they had heard about them. The Nandor were not alone in their derision of Men which lead to them have a hostile attitude to them. The Iathrim also held similair sentiments.

Though Morben might still be applied to them by any who remained hostile to Men (as were the people of Doriath for the most part); but this was intended to be insulting

The Eldar did not meet Men of any kind or race until the Ñoldor had long returned to Beleriand and were at war with Morgoth. The Sindar did not even know of their existence, until the coming of the Nandor; and these brought only rumour of a strange people (whom they had not themselves seen) wandering in the lands of the East beyond the Hithaeglir. From these uncertain tales the Sindar concluded that the 'strange people' were either some diminished race of the Avari, or else related to Orcs

Quendi and Eldar, HoME 11

The Nandorin opinion on Men would hardly have approved with the behaviour of the Haladin who lived in Ossiriand for a while. They were said to be involved in petty squabbles of their own.

or a conceited Noldorin prince (e.g. Caranthir

Bear in mind that these 'conceited' Ñoldorin princes dealt with Men in a better manner then the conceited Sindarin King.

Nandor had had some contact with the Avari. And Avari had lots of contact with the mannish tribes before they reached the west of Beleriand, so if we take Tale of Adanel to be true, then all the men were fallen and possibly persecuted and went after Avari. This might have filled then with resentment against

The myth of Mannish fall is not a concept that exists onky with the 'Tale of Adanel' but with Tolkiens general view on the 'Fall of Men' prior to that. Men were 'fallen' in both chronologies.

It could be that it was only those men who forsook the Morgoth worship and headed west that came into contact with elves early on?

I see this as more probable.

The first Elves that Men met in the world were Avari, some of whom were friendly to them, but the most avoided them or were hostile (according to the tales of Men).

Though this statement from 'Quendi and Eldar' (HoME 11) implies antagonistic relations between Men and the Avari.

If we take the Grey Annals Chronology (The Sun coming when Fingolfin reached Middle-earth) then the Laiquendi probably did not know anything of men until Beor's people showed up in Ossiriand, since the Nandor reached Beleriand long before the coming of the Sun

It is probable that they would have heard tales about them from the Ñoldor.

. Therefore the Ñoldor made names for the Second Race of the Children, calling them the Atani 'the Second Folk'. Other names that they devised were Apanónar 'the After-born', and Hildor 'the Followers'.

Quendi and Eldar (HoME 11)