Númenoreans and death?

But the Numénoreans, didn't they just say, "it is time for me", handing their sons the sceptre, going to bed and when they awoke the next day they were dead...

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Nah not necessarily. It is only Elessar that has expressly being stated as following that practice.

King Meneldur, father of Tar-Aldarion relinquished the crown to his son and live a fair deal still after Tar-Aldarion became the King.
It was only after the thirteenth King that the rulers started clinging to their crown and not giving up kingship readily before their death.


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Is laying down and dying committing suicide? I had thought it would take more action to actually commit suicide. A knife, water, rope. Something like that.

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In a way, in Tolkien's legendirum it doesn't necessary take, specially for the elves, to use any physical methods of killing themselves. I believe Miriel commited a type of sucide too, her Fea left her hroa and techincally she wasn't exactly alive.

Are you people sure that the quote that started the thread refers to Denethor not being able to lay down his life willingly? I have wondered about this. Here is the quote again, together with preceding and succeeding text:

‘He will not wake again,’ said Denethor. ‘Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?’
‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf. ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’

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Doesn't this sound like he was not authorized to commit suicide?

This thread still lives. I will further elaborate on my earlier thoughts as new posters have not addressed these issues.

1) When Numenor was set apart, they were awarded a kind of demi-Eldarin life. They were no longer plagued by disease and old age came much later. They also were able to tell when dotage approached and were "gifted" in being able to simply lay down their lives as did Aragorn in the LotR.

2) As portions of the Numenoreans became corrupted, they lost both life-span and health. It appears that this fate was not sufferred by the Faithful. They continued to have longer lives and they continued to be free from illness.

3) A leader would never have leave to give up his authority during a time of crisis (aka when his people needed him the most). After further thought on the matter, I do not think the ability to give up one's life was exclusive to the King. It appears that any of the Numenorean blood should have been able to do so.

Denethor's authority required him to take charge and PROTECT his people when they were under attack. Denethor's authority came from being the Steward to the King and to act in his stead; hence, he could not choose to commit suicide. In other words, had he defeated Sauron and then chosen to retire himself (death), then that would have been within his authority. To abandon one's people in such a selfish and cowardly manner violated his responsibility as the Steward of Gondor.


(All my opinions, although I think any serious research will validate my points.)

An excellent topi! Care to discuss further?

to shed a different light on the matter, the Numenoreans became obsessed with death and built elaborate mausolaums for their dead. It seems to be connected to their general discontent with their situation, they became greedy and wanted eternal life as opposed to just a longer life than other Men . This is not so different from the ancient mayans and egyptians (where no doubt Tolkien got his insipiration ). Laying down one's life willingly cannot have been easy for the numenoreans, having a longer lifespan than those of a lesser house than the Kings'. I think 'choosing the hour of one's death' means being able to 'give up' living so to say, to let go of the world and move on. Denethor's case didn't really fit into this category as he took his own life, didn't give it up willingly as would have been fitting of a man of his station and lineage.

(sorry if this is a bit disjointed, just scribbling down thoughts...)

Denethor II commited suicide and it will not be said that he had authority to kill himself though he was a Man. Gandalf was right.
Also, the Kings of Numenor died when they knew their death was coming and they had passed the throne to their able children, when everything was peaceful.
This is because the War was going on, Denethor killed himself with the fear of the future that Sauron will emerge as a victor after the War of Ring.
An able Numenorean in his case would have fought in the war gladly without any fear.