Of Reading Ut and HoME

The three last volumes are very good for more information. I don't know if 4 is so good for that.

Bucky...

from CT's Foreword to BoLT

The Book of Lost Tales was begun by my father in 1916-17 during the First War, when he was 25 years old, and left incomplete several years later. It is the starting-point, at least in fully-formed narrative, of the history of Valinor and Middle-earth; but before the Tales were complete he turned to the composition of long poems, the Lay of leithian in rhyming couplets (the story of beren and Luthien), and The Children of Hurin in alliterative verse. The prose form of the 'mythology' began again from a new starting point in a quite breif synopsis, or 'Sketch' as he called it, written in 1926 and expressly intended to provide the necessary background of knowledge for the understanding of the alliterative poem. The further written developement of the prose form proceeded from that 'Sketch' in a direct line to the version of 'The Silmarillion' which was nearing completion towards the end of 1937, when my father broke off to send it as it stood to Allen and Unwin in November of that year; butthere were also important side-branches and subordinate texts composed in the 1930s, as the Annals of Valinor and he Annals of beleriand[/i] (fragments of which are extant also in the Old English translations made by Aelfwine (Eriol)), the cosmological account called Ambarkanta, the Shape of the World, by Rumil, and the Lhammas or 'Account of Tongues', by Pengolod of Gondolin. Thereafter the history of the First Age was laid aside for many years, until [i[The Lord of the Rings[/i] was completed, but in years precedin its actual publication my father returned to 'The Silmarillion' and associated works with great vigour.

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The Poems reffered to are found in HoME III

The 'Sketch' is found in HoME IV, as is the Quenta Noldorinwa which was an expansion following from that outline.

The next Silmarillion which was 'nearling completing towards the end of 1937' is 'Quenta Silmarillion' found in HoME V, but it is not a complete narrative as was Quenta Noldorinwa. This is the rewritting Tolkien was doing before he ceased working and got busy with LotR. There are Annals of Valinor and Beleriand with this.

The Silmarillion writings returned to after that had been set aside for years is found in HoME X and XI. These are the Later Quentas from the 50s. LQ1 from early fifties and LQ2 from late 50s. The later annals are given with it too. The Aman portion in X and the Beleriand part in XI.

One good thing about Later Quenta is that it contains some information that will be completely new to you, especially if you have interest in elves. There is a lot of interesting stuff on them in HoME X and XI. Or don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about with recomendations. hehe!

And, is it written in 'the extreme archaic style my father employed at the time' as CT says of BoLT?

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ha! ... but no, the language in this is not like that in BoLT.

About BoLT being unreadable: I found it hardly readable several months ago, though not because of the archaic language but because I thought of it as, as has been said in this thread already, obsolete, and I also didn't want it mish-mashing with the later writings in my mind. But I'd recommend taking another look at it if you haven't in awhile... maybe you'll find that it can be enjoyed for what it is regardless of the what came of it? I only suggest this because when I returned to it after after only having read Fall of Gondolin (several months earlier) and the first 3 chapters of BoLT I (a few months earlier), I found I loved the thing... which was surpising, but perhaps it happens with others too?

I am sorry I did not notice your post sooner or I would have answered right away.

Full version of The Sil

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None of the other attempts at writing the Quenta Silmarillion, were complete, Tolkien quite someway through each text. (HoME 5, 10, 11.) Tolkien does have a detailed Annals accompanying each, though. The Grey Annals (HoME 11) forms a large part of the Published Silmarillion .

BTW, If I'm only interested in more information on M-E & not alternate versions, how good are the last 3 volumes

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The Quenta's and Annals of HoME 5,10 and 11 were all used to write the Published Silmarillion. HoME 4 contains some interesting and original maps, as well as early versions of the Quenta Silmarillion. HoME 5 contains a wholly independent story named The Lost Road which is (in a nutshell) about Numenor. It also contains the earliest info. on the S.A and Numenor, as well as the Latter Quenta Silmarillion and Annals of Beleriand. You seem dismissive about info. on early versions of LoTR, so I don't know how interested you will be in rejected/early ideas in regards to the F.A, which are basically what 4 and 5 are about.

HoME 10 and 11, are what made up a lot of the Published Silmarillion with some new info., but also contains some rejected ideas, so be careful. They also contain some great essays, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, a collection of essays grouped together and called 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) and Wanderings of Hurin and Quendi and Eldar both contain a lot of original work, hardly seen before. HoME 12, is divided with work on the Appendix and a serious of essays by Tolkien, in his latter years, and are v.interesting and informative.

The LoTR volumes may not interest you, but do not immediately discount them. The latter part of HoME 9, the last 'LoTR' volume has some interesting info. on non-LoTR things and we get some maps of M-E below Gondor/Mordor in HoME 7.

What's HOME?

I suppose that you can get background info from other books like the Silmarillion, Book of Lost Tales, etc.

HOME is History of Middle Earth. I don't actually have them all yet, all I have is Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2.. but as far as I know, it's just TONS of backstory. I've heard it pretty much explains everything. It's 12 (or 13, with the index I think) books, but you can buy them all separately or in a 3 volume set. I've been having a really hard time finding them in stores, but they sound like they'll be really interesting to read. I think History of Middle Earth says it all.. I'm hoping it's exactly that.. a history explaining all these little questions we all have. I think everyone that always answers all these little questions has read HOME... so I'm hoping when I'm done reading them, I'll be just as smart (keep dreaming Nita)

I've started to read The Silmarillion and The Book of Lost Tales, but I have never been able to finish them. Probably because I have to check them out from the library.

I've been buying all the books I can find related to LOTR.. but I'm only just over half way through Two Towers so far.. I haven't had much time to read in the last 6 months. I'm excited to start reading The Sil, Unfinished Tales and all the others. I'm sure I'll be posting on here a lot more when I start those.. heh. I'll have a question or two every day. I hope all you guys don't mind

King Aragorn and Supernita,

I have had pretty good success finding all of the books in the HOME series on amazon.com. What's more, you can save a bit of money by buying them used. I have been able to buy used hard cover editions of the whole series and pay around $10 each with shipping. Paperback editions would be even less expensive.

And the HOME series is more than back story. It is practically all of the drafts and iterations JRRT went through in creating his mythology. You can see the evlolution of the stories from the time he was a teenager up until his death. Interesting stuff but MAN, if you thought the published Silmarillion had a lot of names and places you had to know, just multiply it by, oh, 3 or so and you will have an idea. Like the stories, the languages JRRT created went through quite an evolution.

And since I started this thread with a Hobbit question and because I'm reading it...I highly recommend The Annotated Hobbit by JRRT and with annotations by Douglas A. Anderson. To me, it seems like the HOME of the Hobbit, if you know what I mean.

Re: rescuing princesses?

I don't know if you have enough opinions or not, but I always give mine whether it is wanted or not. . .

Mine is that Middle Earth has been around and had enough cultures that they would've had folklore as well as history. This was obviously what was being told. I doubt they had a set of Grimm Brothers, but they would've had fairy tales.

I remember reading that there are dozens of versions of Cinderella from dozens of cultures, including China. Middle Earth would be no less diverse. There were such things as princesses. Princesses always have appeal. There were bound to be stories of them.

Re: rescuing princesses?

Don't worry HLGStrider, there is room for all opinions.

I agree with your assessment. It just seemed "fairy-taleish" (if that's a word.) I know that Tolkien hadn't written The Lord Of The Rings yet, so he probably hadn't figured that The Hobbit would be part of a great mythology. And since the book was written (initally) for children, I can see why the line was included. I guess it just stuck out at me because I know the bigger picture.

Re: rescuing princesses?

About getting the books off amazon or used or whatever.... yea that hasn't been working. I'm trying to get a set of all 13 (wth index) matching.. which seems to be impossible now. I've seen a picture of them, so I know they exist, but I've gone to 14 different bookstores, at least 5 different sites (including amazon, barnes&noble, chapters.. etc), and I've even contacted harper collins directly.. and NOBODY can tell me how to get the matching set. I'm talking about the ones with the picture on the front and the title in the black box... seems to be popular, however I can only find 1 & 2 with that design. I don't want hardcover because they're too heavy, and I don't like buying used books. I may be picky, but I generally get what I want

Re: rescuing princesses?

Well after I posted that, I went back to barnesandnoble.com and found 3 more.. so it's closer, but not quite all of them. I also found a few more on ebay, and I've contacted the seller inquiring about the condition of the books, because the price he has them at is almost as expensive as buying them new. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and hoping it all works out.

I just realized this thread has gone totally off topic. Was it because of me? I'll have to look back and check

Tolkien hadn't written The Lord Of The Rings yet, so he probably hadn't figured that The Hobbit

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'The Hobibt', nonetheless, has some links with Tolkiens Middle-Earth at the point it was written. Gondolin, Moria, Elrond and Durin are all mentioned-as well as Aman.

LoTR was a product of fans of 'The Hobbit' desire to hear more stories about Hobbits. Tolkien was able to inegrate it within his mythology.

Gorthaur said:

As far as i know,the letters are a separate work and are not mingled with the HOME series.
I've only taken a brief glimpse at them once - I had to return them in an hour or so,but even in that short time I literally consumed them
I think the letters are a must for any Tolkien fan and I'll be getting my own copy very soon.

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You read the Letter in just one hour ?!!!

I personally think that this collection should be "swallowed" in small bits.
Together with H.Carpenther's Biography of the author, the Letters are the main and most reliable source of information about the true and actual Tolkien's concept over and on his own writings.
The rest is only interpretations and assumptions.
Therefore, I think that the Letters is a read to consumed very slowly and carefully. They are a great reference source.

Inderjit S said:

...HoME 10 and 11, are what made up a lot of the Published Silmarillion with some new info., but also contains some rejected ideas, so be careful. They also contain some great essays, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Laws and Customs of the Eldar, a collection of essays grouped together and called 'Myths Transformed' (HoME 10) and Wanderings of Hurin and Quendi and Eldar both contain a lot of original work, hardly seen before. HoME 12, is divided with work on the Appendix and a serious of essays by Tolkien, in his latter years, and are v.interesting and informative.

The LoTR volumes may not interest you, but do not immediately discount them. The latter part of HoME 9, the last 'LoTR' volume has some interesting info. on non-LoTR things and we get some maps of M-E below Gondor/Mordor in HoME 7.

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I was just wondering who "rejected' the "ideas" and how you came to that conclusion. None of the Silmarillion was published and CT put his best face of the accumulated body of work of his father... but who can say what JRRT would have published had he lived??? To me, the published Sil is no more or less authoritative than any of the other later published Sil... all because none of it has the author's stamp of approval.

Well reading the Notes and Commentary to something like Grey Annals or Later Quenta will show that Tolkien later wrote new ideas that directly conflicted with the earlier ones. Take for example the idea that the Quendi first learned language from Orome. If someone doesn't read carefully (for example only reads two paragraphs out of a chapter) they might miss the fact that Tolkien later decided the elves make their own tongue. Like Inderjit, I would call the idea of Orome teaching the elves their tongue a "rejected idea"... then there are countless things like the matter of who was the mother(s) of Finwe's children, and who indeed were Finwe's children?! Of course, people are free to imagine Middle-earth's history happened the way it was written in one of these "rejected ideas", but you can make a more informed decision if you know that Tolkien later wrote something at odds with it.

But you can't have it both ways. The published Silmarillion also says,

from the Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
...Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.(emphasis added)

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yet we have later writings from the author that state,

from Morgoth's Ring
Orcs.

Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.
(1). As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth / Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
(2). ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something prexisting.
(3). But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aule constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music; but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?) It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his king that state heritable.(2) [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.] In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but are 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

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So from this very much later narrative we can see that the author had not "decided" what he would have "published" as the origing for Orcs. CT took his best shot. I still stand by my assertion that we'll never really know what a finished Silmarillion legendarium would look like... because the author hadn't written, compiled and edited it into a finished product for our consumption.

Don't get me wrong... I love what we have... but I'm not sure with what degree of certainty anyone can say what was fully accepted or rejected by the author... since a final version was never compiled by the author. Just MHO of course.

Just becase we don't know what JRRT's final version would have been does not mean that ideas he changed were not rejected. Sure, he might even have gone back to old ideas but that doesn't change they had been rejected at some point.

I just don't think Inderjit was trying to say any one version is THE version of JRRT, but I guess he can answer that when he comes around.

Maikanare said:

...I just don't think Inderjit was trying to say any one version is THE version of JRRT, but I guess he can answer that when he comes around.

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If that is indeed what he is saying... then I'm in total agreeement. There are most certainly certainties in the works (cute huh??) There are things that were apparently finally etched in stone by the author and, yet, there was much that was left in limbo. CT giving us the Silmarillion did not create a canon from which we can quote with any real certainty on many issues pertaining to the mythology. That is all I'm trying to say. Just as we can't be sure of which ideas were totally rejected and those which weren't... except for the directions and opinions put forth by his son CT (who certainly knew as well as anybody where his father was heading) and what we can glean from the author's letters.

Now... have I really confused you????