Olympic Torch 👹Uruk

I have to make the point that in the movie, Aragorn has been surrounded by several hundred thousand Orcs and then informed by the Mouth of Sauron that Frodo has perished and the Quest of the Ring has failed. This wasn't seen in the movie but will be seen in the EE. Still, the rest of the battle bears this in mind so this is the reason why Aragorn says "For Frodo." and charges followed by the two hobbits because they are his closest friends.

From the moment The Mouth of Sauron throws down the mithril vest, I think survival or holding out for as long as possible is not really on Aragorn's mind because Sauron has the Ring.
It's now or never.


I think most of the Elves are still concerned with the Uruks on the walls. After the first volleys of arrows are loosed against the seething hordes of enemies below, Aragorn orders the Elves to put away their bows and draw their swords when the ladders are raised. Some still have their bows out but they are concerned with the Tortoise moving up the causeway to the gate. Two arrows in the collarbone straight down to the chest should kill anything, but Aragorn and Legolas don't know about the bombs and Legolas might still be concerned with conserving arrows.
When we see Legolas doing rapid-fire, it is at a range of about 10 feet. Against the Uruk it is more than 50 feet. Even Legolas has to aim!

Anyway, the bombs have to be detonated at some stage.

Thanks
Morgaphry

Rhiannon said:

Gandalf says that they might die. They knew that already. But they hardly made a goal out of it! They were ready to take the risk, but I'm sure they intended to delay the necessity as long as possible.

Also, I think that my nice defensive positions on the hills could indeed have held out for at least a day, though perhaps not longer. .....

"Who said life is fair? Where is that written?"

I maintain that the sequence as presented in the film struck me as being silly, and I give reasons for why the sequence in the book strikes me as being perfectly reasonable. If we want to talk about convenient timing, where do those darn eagles aka gods in the machine keep coming from?
......

Did I mention that I'm a cantankarous female? You have been warned.

Click to expand...

No, they didn't make a goal of dying, but it is clear from Gandalf's statements they didn't expect to survive. Of course, they are going to try to delay their end as long as possible. They are a diversion! It is in the nature of a diversion to keep your enemy occupied as long as possible, or at least until your main objective is achieved. They certainly wouldn't accomplish much in the way of distracting Sauron if they all marched up to the Black Gate, pulled out their swords and fell on them. Though I suppose Sauron might then have spent so much time scratching his head (eye? ) that Frodo and Sam would gain the necessary time to complete their mission.

As for fair, no life isn't fair, but for criticism to be taken seriously it needs to at least have the appearance of being fair, otherwise it is merely cranky and childish.

Eagles? You do realize, don't you that that is another thing that Jackson followed Tolkien on?

Cantankerous? Lady, you ain't seen nothin. I was considered a curmudgeon when I was still in my early twenties and that was decades ago.

Finally, in "The Black Gate Opens", Tolkien writes:

The men of the West were trapped, and soon, all about the grey mounds where they stood, forces ten times and more than ten times their match would ring them in a seas of enemies. Sauron had taken the proffered bait in jaws of steel.

Click to expand...

Your "defensive" positions are a joke. Also note, they are described as being on "mounds". They are not defending some mountain tops with the enemy having to scale cliffs or even steep slopes to get to them. They are positioned on some slag heaps. Given the numerical superiority in numbers of Sauron's army, and that there is no difference in weaponry, the end of Aragorn and company can be counted in minutes, not hours.

I object to people who don't recognize quotes from The Princess Bride, on a moral basis

No, they didn't make a goal of dying, but it is clear from Gandalf's statements they didn't expect to survive. Of course, they are going to try to delay their end as long as possible. They are a diversion! It is in the nature of a diversion to keep your enemy occupied as long as possible, or at least until your main objective is achieved.

Click to expand...

...which was my point.

Eagles? You do realize, don't you that that is another thing that Jackson followed Tolkien on?

Click to expand...

Yes yes, I was being facetious. Tolkien's love of the eagles as a plot device is something at amuses me greatly.

Cantankerous? Lady, you ain't seen nothin. I was considered a curmudgeon when I was still in my early twenties and that was decades ago.

Click to expand...

I'm considered a curmudgeon now and I'm not even legally an adult (yet). It's not my fault you had a head start.

Your "defensive" positions are a joke. Also note, they are described as being on "mounds". They are not defending some mountain tops with the enemy having to scale cliffs or even steep slopes to get to them. They are positioned on some slag heaps. Given the numerical superiority in numbers of Sauron's army, and that there is no difference in weaponry, the end of Aragorn and company can be counted in minutes, not hours.

Click to expand...

Still higher ground, I didn't say they were mountains. Walking up any kind of slope in armour is not a good way to have fun. It doesn't have to be much.

And really, none of that is the point. I just enjoy running my mouth. The point is that the sequence in the film looked silly. I thought most of the film looked silly. I don't think Peter Jackson made the battles look real, and the realism is what I like, dangit.

Rhiannon said:

Though if you say I need practice...are you volunteering to serve as a target?

Click to expand...

By all means, all long as it is not too mean-hearted!

I can see your points, but I still fail to agree that what PJ did is nonsensical, or a silly stunt.

symbelmyne said:

I find it odd that you pooh-pooh Rhiannon's guerilla tactics yet tell me that the women and children of Edoras would have been better off fleeing "into the hills" - where the walking group would be quickly surrounded by thousands of orcs- than going to the strongest fortress of Rohan!

Click to expand...

Whoa! An example of guerilla tactics is not to go up to the enemy's main fortress and walk backwards as they come running out at you!

The idea was to have the women and children leave Edoras (walking forwards, I might add ) while Theoden and his mounted men drew the orcs away.

symbelmyne said:

Tolkien and PJ? *coughs* Is this suppossed to be sarcastic?

Click to expand...

Yes, in a cynical sort of way. (Rhiannon never did explain where the horses went...)

Rhiannon said:

Oooh, GW, watch out now! You've made the girls mad! I'm sitting over here with Simbelmyne. Cookie?

Click to expand...

Whoops...

I'll take the cookie if it's sugar-free.

symbelmyne said:

Sorry to say, GW, there is more than one smart lady out there who disagrees with you...

Click to expand...

*shades his eyes with his hands, looking far and wide*

I don't see any.....at all...my good looks have won them all over!

j/k j/k

Gandalf White said:

By all means, all long as it is not too mean-hearted!

I can see your points, but I still fail to agree that what PJ did is nonsensical, or a silly stunt.

Click to expand...

Mean-hearted? Me? Never. Facetious, yes, with a sarcastic streak a mile wide, but never mean. *angelic halo*
It's all good, as long as you see my points. If we all agreed life would be about as much fun as singing the Kumbaya song as a round thirty times a day for the next one hundred years. I think all know that that would drive us completely insane and there would be some serious eye twitching, right before the world went up in flames.

I'll take the cookie if it's sugar-free.

Click to expand...

Of course, of course. Cookie?

*shades his eyes with his hands, looking far and wide*

I don't see any.....at all...my good looks have won them all over!

j/k j/k

Click to expand...

You're a brave man, GW. Stupid, but brave.
Or maybe the word I want is fool-hardy. By the way, Frank wants to talk to you....

Rhiannon said:

You're a brave man, GW. Stupid, but brave.
Or maybe the word I want is fool-hardy. By the way, Frank wants to talk to you....

Click to expand...

I fail to see the connection! (And no, that's not proof that I'm stupid...) And brave? Or fool-hardy? How???

*is lost*

And tell Frank I'm out of town, I don't know how long I'll be.

(Frank is one of those older, stretched out socks, weighted down by objects put inside, and wielded in a vicious manner, correct?)

Gandalf White said:

The idea was to have the women and children leave Edoras (walking forwards, I might add ) while Theoden and his mounted men drew the orcs away.

Click to expand...

There are plenty of orcs to destroy Theoden's army in open battle AND finish off the villagers scurrying towards the hills (and their little dogs too). A good defense was their best offense.

*shades his eyes with his hands, looking far and wide* I don't see any.....

Click to expand...

Hey, GW *pokes on shoulder* we're all standing on this hill behind you. But I AM impressed you wanted a sugar-free cookie.

Rhiannon, can I have one too? All I ask is no raisens

simbelmyne said:

There are plenty of orcs to destroy Theoden's army in open battle AND finish off the villagers scurrying towards the hills (and their little dogs too). A good defense was their best offense.

Click to expand...

Not if they don't know those little villagers and their dogs and cats are scurrying away to safety. I personally think they'd try and take out Theoden's army first.

Hey, GW *pokes on shoulder* we're all standing on this hill behind you. But I AM impressed you wanted a sugar-free cookie.

Rhiannon, can I have one too? All I ask is no raisens

Click to expand...

Oh, on the rubble heap behind me? And only two of you? My, my...

You bring up a valid point, though; the cookie must be sugar and raisin free. Sugar does bad things to my pretty face and raisins taste awful.

(Frank is one of those older, stretched out socks, weighted down by objects put inside, and wielded in a vicious manner, correct?)

Click to expand...

Ah-ha, so you've met Frank already, have you? *ominous voice* Frank the Mighty will find you wherever you go. Mwahahahaha!

Rhiannon, can I have one too? All I ask is no raisens

Click to expand...

No raisins, raisens are nasty

Oh, on the rubble heap behind me? And only two of you? My, my...

Click to expand...

Three of us, counting Frank, thank you.

Rhiannon said:

Three of us, counting Frank, thank you.

Click to expand...

Franks a woman?

And I always thought that Frank was the name of the cute bunny wabbit on my avatar....

Ol'gaffer said:

Franks a woman?

Click to expand...

Frank is a sock. I suppose, since Frank is my sock, you might consider Frank feminine....But mostly Frank is a sock.

Either way, Frank is on my side. Beware!

Rhiannon said:

Ah-ha, so you've met Frank already, have you?

Click to expand...

No, I haven't meant Frank in person (nor do I mean to), but I have wielded several socks like him while making war on my siblings, a while back...

Quite a while back come to think of it.

Morgaphry said:

I think survival or holding out for as long as possible is not really on Aragorn's mind because Sauron has the Ring.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't there also be a corner of A's mind where he was wondering why, if S has the Ring, he hasn't done anything with it?

No offense to Viggo, but I don't think PJ's Aragorn has a mind with that many corners...hahaha

????
Simbelmyne, other than the fact that you don't like PJ's Aragorn, do you have any basis for saying that?

If anything, PJ's Aragorn is different from JRRT's in that he is more of a thinker. Why would anyone accuse him of less thought?

joxy- In the books there are several instances where the good guys think Sauron might have the Ring, in spite of the fact that he has not 'done' anything with it. I'm not sure that there is supposed to be any obvious sign that this has occurred that Aragorn would worry about. I doubt there would be any special flash of light, etc. that would alert the world, though I may be wrong.

Maybe Sauron has to take a couple of days to forge some new spiky armour and a mace.

Maybe Sauron needs to find a new fashion consultant who isn't stuck on the Evil Emperor Zurg look.

"No Buzz...I am your father!"

Yikes, another almost-Star Wars reference.