'One Adaptation to Ruin Them All'

[Radaghast]

An essay from 2016 (that I posted on another forum and totally forgot about). It raises some points I agree with as well as ones I'd never considered before, that I may or many not agree with, since I have reread the whole thing yet (but one point I don't agree with is that the Hobbit films were truer to the spirit of Tolkien than the LoR trilogy).

An interesting read, in any case, imho.

One Adaptation to Ruin Them All

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Valid points -- although they were being made here as far back as 2001:

My God, It Was Horrible!

All you doomsayers were right. It was absolutely horrible. I was crying in the theater. I wanted to walk out, but I didn't b/c my friends were there! All the party is screwed up, out of order, shortened. The trip to Bree was in 45 minutes or so...not 1.30 like it should've been. IT...

thetolkien.forum

(There are Parts II and III, to go with that).

 

[Radaghast]

As I reread this I find another point I strenuously disagree with:

The last character I want to comment on is Frodo. He fared better than most others mentioned here, but what bothers me a lot is that instead of being in his 50s and a little fat, he looks about 20 and as spry as anyone.

His age is what the author finds bothersome? That is the least of the problems with Frodo! I can't believe I missed this the first time!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I have no problem with the casting, TBH. What are the major problems you have with movie Frodo? For me, it was his relative helplessness.

 

[Radaghast]

I have no problem with the casting, TBH. What are the major problems you have with movie Frodo? For me, it was his relative helplessness.

That's exactly my problem, and it is a big one, in my view, because Frodo is the principle character in the book. The screenwriters have him do practically the polar opposite of everything he does in the text and it is utterly vexing to me, as if they wanted to make a point of it, and willfully disregard Tolkien's intent, and I can't imagine why.

The most glaring scene is Weathertop. Where in the book Frodo attacks the Witch-king with the Barrow-blade (or whatever the sword is supposed to be in the movies) just before he his stabbed, in the movie he drops his sword and scuttles backward on his rear end, then meekly waits to be stabbed. Then he cries to the other hobbits like a little baby. Which reminds me: the others make a stand against the 'Wraiths, while only Frodo cowers and wimpers. Why is Frodo singled out look like a wimp? It doesn't make any sense to me. This is also true in Moria: the other hobbits fight (including Sam with his Mighty Frying-Pan), while Frodo runs about and cries out for Aragorn to save him (granted it's a huge troll, but this seems another thumb of the nose to the book, wherein Frodo stabs a troll in the foot).

The other major scene is the Ford of Bruinen where Frodo is carried across by Arwen. The strength of will he shows in the book is totally lost in translation, perhaps never even considered. In the book where we see Frodo's valiant (if ultimately futile) attempt at resisting the approaching Ringwraiths, in the movie we see him as nothing but a passenger. This book scene (as well as earlier scenes, including the Barrow-downs, which are absent in the films) establishes Frodo's bravery and makes the reader believe he is brave enough to undertake the Quest. The films do not sufficiently set this up. Frodo then goes on to do what he does because the script requires it.

 

[Olorgando]

TH the book dealt with the development (of a 50-year-old!!!) thrown from comfortable circumstance into decidedly uncomfortable ones, Bilbo.
In a subtler way, LotR (the book) repeats this with the almost exactly same-aged Frodo.

"Hollywood blockbuster" films. are aimed at the 13½-14½-year-old US male knuckle-dragging demographic (at least as imagined by the decidedly older knuckle-dragging demographic calling the shots in that cesspit). Whose vocabulary may or may not include the term "development". And frighteningly few of whom actually "develop" beyond that stage. They need their Marvel / DC megaheroes to dimly look up to. Hobbits just don't fit that simplistic bill

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Tolkien strove mightily to keep what he called the "hobbito-centric" point of view. PJ&Co. seemed to have difficulty with it. Or else made a deliberate decision to change perspective. Maybe they thought audiences would have problems identifying with hobbits. Have they ever discussed this?

 

[Elthir]

Wattabout cat-centric?

Ai nap meowi Dúnadan!

 

[d4rk3lf]

I am puzzled why almost no one is bothered by the Gandalf portrayal in LOTR movies.
Ian is a great actor, but that wasn't Gandalf from the books.
Not even close.

And I am always sad because of that, because Gandalf from the books is so charismatic and strong leader, and very very energetic, with best rhetoric abilities.
I always thought that maybe it would be better if actors for Gandalf and Saruman was switched, because I am pretty sure that Christopher Lee would be much better Gandalf.

 

[Radaghast]

I am puzzled why almost no one is bothered by the Gandalf portrayal in LOTR movies.
Ian is a great actor, but that wasn't Gandalf from the books.
Not even close.

I do not necessarily disagree about McKellen's Gandalf, but I am curious to see more.

 

[d4rk3lf]

@Radaghast
Not sure what do you mean by more?
You want me to elaborate more?

 

[Radaghast]

@Radaghast
Not sure what do you mean by more?
You want me to elaborate more?

Sure, if you'd care to, I'd love to learn more.

 

[Radaghast]

Tolkien strove mightily to keep what he called the "hobbito-centric" point of view. PJ&Co. seemed to have difficulty with it. Or else made a deliberate decision to change perspective. Maybe they thought audiences would have problems identifying with hobbits. Have they ever discussed this?

Yeah, the book was written to fulfill a demand for more about hobbits, after all, and Tolkien kept true to that; he resisted the urge, if he ever had one, of making Aragorn the central character. I would say, though, that the movies don't necessarily give the hobbits short shrift, in general, just Frodo in particular. I mean, Merry and Pippin look like country bumpkins (to put it charitably), especially Pippin, but at least they perform the deeds the book says they do, and even has Pippin do something he doesn't do in the book. Sam probably comes off the best (though I can't say I'm a fan of Sean Astin's performance).

To add insult to injury, there's the "go home, Sam" scene. Neither Frodo nor Sam come off well, but Frodo definitely comes out worse. And the scene itself is of course garbage from a logical standpoint.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I dunno-- the movies seemed a bit "Aragorn-centric" to me, maybe because of all the extraneous stuff they put in.

I won't bother going into what they did to his character, as that's been rehearsed here ad nauseum.

 

[Radaghast]

I dunno-- the movies seemed a bit "Aragorn-centric" to me, maybe because of all the extraneous stuff they put in.

I won't bother going into what they did to his character, as that's been rehearsed here ad nauseum.

Oh, yeah, I agree. They definitely turned the focus more on Aragorn than they should have.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Sure, if you'd care to, I'd love to learn more.

Movie Gandalf and Book Gandalf are 2 totally different personalities.
I wrote several times on this forum that movie Gandalf reminds me of a good old grandpa, or Santa Claus type of character.

Book Gandalf wouldn't stupidly hit his head on the hobbit roof (neither Tolkien would make such a low humor scene).
Book Gandalf ALWAYS knows what to do in critical situations. He doesn't ask Frodo to decide if they were go to the Moria.
He makes decisions by himself, and he have authority to do it, and nobody in fellowship is daring to question his decisions, and if they (rarely) do, they are beaten right away with Gandalf perfect argument (this is why I say he is incredible rhetoric).
He is the one that solves the Moria door puzzle, not Frodo.
He sometimes doesn't even want to argue with other characters, as that would be just a waste of time.. I felt like... after he realized Saruman have betrayed, he was like... bored.. haha ... like... "Ok, you have me as a prisoner, but don't bore me please".
He have incredibly strong personality.
Book Gandalf stands his ground in confrontation with Witch King like a statue of the Gods, he doesn't being beaten up.
Book Gandalf always have some information hidden. He never reveals everything he knows. He just know something that other characters don't, that readers don't, and when he reveals some of his thoughts (like when traveling with Pipin on Shadowfax), you get to admire him even more, because everything he says makes perfect sense, and he is always one step in front of Sauron.
Tolkien wrote that whenever he appears, he sparks energy in others... only energetic people can do that.

Movie Gandalf is pretty much opposite.
He is always tired.. weak... smiles too much... he is weak in verbal confrontation with others... the kung fu stuff fighting in action scenes, only makes him less believable....
The only scene where I liked him, is when he starts yelling on Bilbo, and he became higher, and more threatening, while lightning changes...
That is how "real" Gandalf should behave...
You just don't mess with him.

 

[Radaghast]

Movie Gandalf and Book Gandalf are 2 totally different personalities.
I wrote several times on this forum that movie Gandalf reminds me of a good old grandpa, or Santa Claus type of character.

Book Gandalf wouldn't stupidly hit his head on the hobbit roof (neither Tolkien would make such a low humor scene).
Book Gandalf ALWAYS knows what to do in critical situations. He doesn't ask Frodo to decide if they were go to the Moria.
He makes decisions by himself, and he have authority to do it, and nobody in fellowship is daring to question his decisions, and if they (rarely) do, they are beaten right away with Gandalf perfect argument (this is why I say he is incredible rhetoric).
He is the one that solves the Moria door puzzle, not Frodo.
He sometimes doesn't even want to argue with other characters, as that would be just a waste of time.. I felt like... after he realized Saruman have betrayed, he was like... bored.. haha ... like... "Ok, you have me as a prisoner, but don't bore me please".
He have incredibly strong personality.
Book Gandalf stands his ground in confrontation with Witch King like a statue of the Gods, he doesn't being beaten up.
Book Gandalf always have some information hidden. He never reveals everything he knows. He just know something that other characters don't, that readers don't, and when he reveals some of his thoughts (like when traveling with Pipin on Shadowfax), you get to admire him even more, because everything he says makes perfect sense, and he is always one step in front of Sauron.
Tolkien wrote that whenever he appears, he sparks energy in others... only energetic people can do that.

Movie Gandalf is pretty much opposite.
He is always tired.. weak... smiles too much... he is weak in verbal confrontation with others... the kung fu stuff fighting in action scenes, only makes him less believable....
The only scene where I liked him, is when he starts yelling on Bilbo, and he became higher, and more threatening, while lightning changes...
That is how "real" Gandalf should behave...
You just don't mess with him.

I strongly agree, overall, except the book does describe him as looking aged and weary at times.

I do particularly agree with the Moria scene. That's one of the scenes that bothers me about the movie (though, frankly, there isn't much about the movies that doesn't bother me). The movie also omits the standoff with the Wargs, where Gandalf's power really shines. Simply an awful scene to leave on the cutting room floor. And that joke of a scene in TTT is no compensation.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

The other major scene is the Ford of Bruinen where Frodo is carried across by Arwen.

There's another issue with this one, and her name starts with an A and ends with an n. 😅

The strength of will he shows in the book is totally lost in translation, perhaps never even considered. In the book where we see Frodo's valiant (if ultimately futile) attempt at resisting the approaching Ringwraiths, in the movie we see him as nothing but a passenger.

I've seen someone describe Frodo as a "wet noodle blanket" in that scene, and it could not be more accurate to what PJ did and could not be more inaccurate to what Tolkien wrote.

Barrow-downs

This was even said by Gandalf to be the most dangerous moment for Frodo!

"But you have some strength in you, my dear hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all."

Shame they cut all these things out, but it's an adaptation... No adaptation will ever do a perfect job.

 

[Radaghast]

I've seen someone describe Frodo as a "wet noodle blanket" in that scene, and it could not be more accurate to what PJ did and could not be more inaccurate to what Tolkien wrote.

Or a sack of wet grain. In other words, completely useless and pointless.

This was even said by Gandalf to be the most dangerous moment for Frodo!

And also the first time he truly shows his mettle.

Shame they cut all these things out, but it's an adaptation... No adaptation will ever do a perfect job.

The good adaptation should highlight a story's most important moments, and the Barrow-downs is one, in my estimation; I mean, it's pretty significant and I feel it could have been incorporated even if Tom Bombadil wasn't going to be. But it really looks like PJ wanted to portray Frodo as a weakling.

Anyway, a TV series would be the best way to go, I think. Unfortunately, there will probably never be one.

 

[d4rk3lf]

except the book does describe him as looking aged and weary at times.

Yup, but doesn't book always say that beyond the weary... everyone could fell his force?
Yes Gandalf was sometimes weary (like, after the confrontation, with Balrog, through the door), but that was, logical weary... After the door blew up.. he felt weary... how he could felt different?
Another weary. moment, I can only see in when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, see him.. but this is the weary of own choose.
But even if his weary, he is incredible strong leader... he never fails... he is never truly weary.