📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Ithrynluin]

I'm pleased to see that 72% of people think that Balrogs had wings.

 

[Gothmog]

May I ask just what it is that pleases you about 72% getting it completly wrong??

Ok another look at this subject. I have posted this on another site also.

We all know that Tolkien could describe things in minute detail and with his words he could conjure up pictures so that we could see exactly what he wanted us to see. With this in mind let us look at the question 'Do Balrogs have Wings'.

What is it that JRRT wanted us to see when we looked at the Balrog in Moria. I am not going to bother This time with the much used quotes of 'Like Wings' and 'Wings Spread' they have already been talked to death and no longer have any meaning. Let us instead look a little earlier in the chapter.
The first sight of the Balrog.

But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

So we cannot see what it is that is coming towards the company. It was a darkness like a great shadow and in this shadow was a form of 'Man-Shape Maybe'. Unless any wings were folded very tightly it is difficult for me to imagine how such a poorly viewed object could be thought to be even maybe of 'Man-Shape'. If winged, Such a dark form within a shadow would have surely looked more like some great beast.
This is followed by.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

It seems that this shows at least that it cannot fly. Why else would it need to rush and leap across the fissure?

The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them.

This seems to me, not to go with the idea of a winged creature.

Although Each of these quotes on their own mean very little, taken as a whole they brought to my mind a creature that could travel swiftly but had not wings of phyical form but only a shadow surrounding it that it could extend at will.

 

[Ithrynluin]

it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater;

So we cannot see what it is that is coming towards the company. It was a darkness like a great shadow and in this shadow was a form of 'Man-Shape Maybe'. Unless any wings were folded very tightly it is difficult for me to imagine how such a poorly viewed object could be thought to be even maybe of 'Man-Shape'. If winged, Such a dark form within a shadow would have surely looked more like some great beast.

The thing in the "shadow" is the Balrog, I think we agree on that. But I don't understand why you can't see "shadow" as being its wings? Great shadow = great wings.

Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure.

It seems that this shows at least that it cannot fly. Why else would it need to rush and leap across the fissure?

The fact that it has wings, doesn't mean it has to fly all the time! Do birds fly all the time? I presume the Balrog didn't feel the need to fly over a little fissure, or he was saving his strength for his confrontation with Gandalf (I assume that flying is an exhausting exercise).

May I ask just what it is that pleases you about 72% getting it completly wrong??

 

[Rúmil]

The fact that it has wings, doesn't mean it has to fly all the time! Do birds fly all the time? I presume the Balrog didn't feel the need to fly over a little fissure, or he was saving his strength for his confrontation with Gandalf (I assume that flying is an exhausting exercise).

Good point, but what about the great fall? it would have been useful to fly then..

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Rúmil
Good point, but what about the great fall? it would have been useful to fly then..

Maybe not if he/she feared that Gandalf would get away.

 

[Gothmog]

The thing in the "shadow" is the Balrog, I think we agree on that. But I don't understand why you can't see "shadow" as being its wings? Great shadow = great wings.

Yes the Balrog was indeed In the "shadow". Wings are not mentioned and yet at this point if there were any they would be the only part of the Balrog that could be identified yet nothing is said.

The fact that it has wings, doesn't mean it has to fly all the time! Do birds fly all the time? I presume the Balrog didn't feel the need to fly over a little fissure, or he was saving his strength for his confrontation with Gandalf (I assume that flying is an exhausting exercise).

True, flying would be exhausting and so would rushing and leaping. On the other hand, a creature with wings would no doubt find that using said wings to assist by gliding would in fact be far easier in getting over a fissure than holding them shut and doing a long-jump.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Rúmil
Good point, but what about the great fall? it would have been useful to fly then..

It sure would! Poor Balrog!

But then again, you could say "Gandalf could have just climbed up from that ledge instead of foolishly letting himself drop in."

I'm sure both of their staminas (or however you like to call that) was drained from their encounter. Gandalf was too weakened to climb up, and the Fiery Man was too exhausted to fly.

Originally posted by Gothmog
Yes the Balrog was indeed In the "shadow". Wings are not mentioned and yet at this point if there were any they would be the only part of the Balrog that could be identified yet nothing is said.

I was thinking more along the lines of : The Balrog was standing IN the shadow....of his own wings.

 

[Gothmog]

I was thinking more along the lines of : The Balrog was standing IN the shadow....of his own wings.

Which would mean that the Wings would be the most obvious part of the Balrog and the first to be noticed. Yet they are not mentioned at all until after the Shadow is compared to "wings".

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gothmog
Which would mean that the Wings would be the most obvious part of the Balrog and the first to be noticed. Yet they are not mentioned at all until after the Shadow is compared to "wings".

Sure they are the most obvious part of the Balrog, but still only a shadow, not recognizable to be wings. Maybe Tolkien (as a narrator) put himself in the shoes of one of the Fellowship, and none of them would have perceived the shadow as wings, they would have seen only a "humanoid" figure standing in a shadow.

Why SHOULD they be mentioned anyway? Why didn't Tolkien
mention that Tom Bombadil is a Vala/Maia/Nature spirit/whatever? Just another one of those little contradictions and mysteries that the books are so full of. Anyway, that's my take on it.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Sure they are the most obvious part of the Balrog, but still only a shadow, not recognizable to be wings. Maybe Tolkien (as a narrator) put himself in the shoes of one of the Fellowship, and none of them would have perceived the shadow as wings, they would have seen only a "humanoid" figure standing in a shadow.

Why SHOULD they be mentioned anyway? Why didn't Tolkien
mention that Tom Bombadil is a Vala/Maia/Nature spirit/whatever? Just another one of those little contradictions and mysteries that the books are so full of. Anyway, that's my take on it.

It seems to me that as the objects causing the shadow they would have looked more like wings that the object would have looked "Man-like". As for Why should they mentioned I have already covered that. Tolkien did not want to mention too much. He wanted to leave it for us to decide.

And you have still not covered the point about crossing the Fissure. Tolkien stated that the Balrog rushed and Leaped across. Had it been standing in the shadow of wings then it would have been more likely that it would have kept its wings spread and "Glided" across. And Tolkien would have writen it that way.

 

[Ol'gaffer]

Well, I think that the Balrog had wings. It made it look more dramatic.

But what I really want to know is how did gandalf manage to hurt it since it was nothing more than flame and shadow?

 

[Rúmil]

elvish and Númenorean swords were more than just ordinary swords: they were 'magic' swords that could undo the spell that bound the fëa of evil crreatures to their hröa:

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Gothmog
It seems to me that as the objects causing the shadow they would have looked more like wings that the object would have looked "Man-like". As for Why should they mentioned I have already covered that. Tolkien did not want to mention too much. He wanted to leave it for us to decide.

That's where we disagree basically. Maybe if each of us illustrated what we mean it would be easier to understand. But since my artistic skills are close to zero, no can do. We'll have to agree that there is a "fissure" between our opinions.

Originally posted by Gothmog
And you have still not covered the point about crossing the Fissure. Tolkien stated that the Balrog rushed and Leaped across. Had it been standing in the shadow of wings then it would have been more likely that it would have kept its wings spread and "Glided" across. And Tolkien would have writen it that way.

I have not covered it because your explanation makes more sense than mine. Still my belief that they HAD wings holds firmly. I'm glad I had this little debate with you though.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
That's where we disagree basically. Maybe if each of us illustrated what we mean it would be easier to understand. But since my artistic skills are close to zero, no can do. We'll have to agree that there is a "fissure" between our opinions.



I have not covered it because your explanation makes more sense than mine. Still my belief that they HAD wings holds firmly. I'm glad I had this little debate with you though.

I could do no better at illustrating(and I have tried). It is all about how each sees it. So we are left with an agreement to disagree, I still see them wingless This has been one of the better discussions I have had over this topic and I thank you.

 

[Ithrynluin]

So I'm right, eh? BWAHAHAHAHA... Take that Gothmog!

 

[Wonko The Sane]

Yes.
Balrogs had wings.
The End.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Yes.
Balrogs had wings.
The End.

Wonx, thank you for supporting my view. Short and to the point.

 

[Lantarion]

OMG. Please read the already existing posts before defiantly stating an unsupported opinion.

 

[Gothmog]

Originally posted by Wonko The Sane
Yes.
Balrogs had wings.
The End.

Please supply supporting Proof for this statement.

ps. Good luck in finding Any

 

[Wonko The Sane]

To Lantarion and Gothmog.

That's just what I think...not because there is any evidence for or against it, but because that's what I think.

The first post in this thread said

Did Balrogs have Wings? What do you think, rather than what you evidence thinks....I don't want people to argue, just whether they have wings...

It didn't ask for evidence. Just my opinion.

So don't jump on my case or get snippy.

I gave my opinion like Beorn asked.

Be nicer next time.