📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Popqueen62]

I don't...

I don't thing Balrogs had wings, and if it says something about it, it was probably an analogy.

 

[balrog]

mmmm, i can't tell if i have wings through all this shadow and flame

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by balrog
mmmm, i can't tell if i have wings through all this shadow and flame

ROTFL!! Beautiful, beautiful..
Welcome to the forum, Balrog!

 

[saulone]

Ahhh...the Balrogs/Wings argument

I will have to say that I ride the fence on this. I think there are substantial arguments on both sides - the passage where the Dwarves awoke the Balrog of Moria in Appendix A, Section III

"Thus (the dwarves) roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth."

....so I am geussing he flies.

To flip the coin however, in the "Wings of Darkness" comment also in the book - I actually see this as more of a comparison and not to be taken literally.

"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"

The fact that Balrogs tend to have references to flight attached to them in both the Sil and LOTR - be it literal or not should also be addressed.

Personally I think Balrogs do have wings - however, they are not terribly functional in my mind. I think they are more for show, or for short leaps of flight - like a turkey or chicken (don't laugh ).

Here's my vision of a Balrog...

 

[Maedhros]

At last the discussion of Balrogs: Winged or not.

Personally I think Balrogs do have wings - however, they are not terribly functional in my mind.

Interesting to come to the conclusion that balrogs had wings with so little evidence. I would even say too simple, yet in saying that if they had wings that didn't function as intented (flying) is interesting.
Let's analyze this a little:
1. Balrogs had wings, (which there is no evidence in LOTR that they had any), and to go to the postion that the ones that they had don't function is intelligent and in a way convenient. Why, because you don't have to prove anything. In Lotr, which is canon
From Chapter 5: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '

Look at the way Gandalf talked to the Fellowship in there:

'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. `Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly!

Was Gandalf telling the fellowship to take out their wings and literaly fly (in the air) or to move out of there fast. . Wait, there is the possiblity that they had wings, but they didn't function.
Later in the chapter:

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

I wonder why people don't quote this part entirely and only the part of the wings.
These quotes describe the balrog as a being of "shadow" and its "shadow" reached out like two vast wings, not that it had 2 wings.

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

It says that the darkness grew and so its "wings". These are of course not real wings.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools! ' he cried, and was gone.

It says that the shadow vanished, and while it did, there is no mention of its "wings of darkness". If he had any wings, why aren't they mentioned here?
And again, Gandalf tells the company to get out of there by using the word fly, which i don't think means to intend for them to go "flying" in the air.
From LOTR: The White Rider

'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

At this time, did he had "useless wings of slime" then?

'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.

Any mention of wings anywhere? Even useless wings?
Let's look at other mentions of the word fly in LOTR
From LOTR: Helm's Deep

'Would that day was here and we might ride down upon them like a storm out of the mountains!' said Aragorn. 'It grieves me to fly before them.'
'We need not fly much further,' said Éomer. 'Not far ahead now lies Helm's Dike, an ancient trench and rampart scored across the coomb, two furlongs below Helm's Gate. There we can turn and give battle.'

If I remember correctly, Aragorn couldn't fly, could he?
From the Published Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor

Far beneath the rained halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

Wings anywhere? Or even mention the word fly?
But to be fair, we have in Morgoth's Ring
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quenta Silmarillion:

Far beneath the halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, the Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their lord. Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

We have here the mention of the phrase "winged speed" that means either that they moved very fast or that they had wings could fly, or simply that the wings that they had made them move more "rapidly".
There is another phrase with the word "winged":

Therefore Ulmo taught them the craft of ship-building; and Ossë, submitting to Ulmo, brought them as his farewell gift the strong-winged swans.

Swans definitely had wings, so does that means that the balrogs had wings too?
I would conclude that based on the canonical evidence in the LOTR, you cannot say that Balrogs had wings or useless wings, because there is no proof.
If you decide to use the Later Quenta as the source of information, you have to remember that it's not canon, because it was not published by JRRT. You could say that they either had: wings or useless wings.

In conclusion, if you were to say that the Balrogs had wings or useless wings, the proof you have is in the Later Quenta, not in LOTR nor the Published Silmarillion.

 

[Lantarion]

Very detailed and interesting post, Maedhros. Thanks.
Although you would make a more powerful point without so much sarcasm, witty or not.
Personally I agree with what Tolkien says about the Shadow around the Balrog enveloping it like wings.. But how can the Appendix-quote be explained?
Also it seems slightly futile to draw any actual proof on the matter from the hoME, because as I understand everthing there is preliminary, unfinished and/or 'incorrect' to Tolkien himself, at least in Morgoth's Ring.

 

[Maedhros]

Very detailed and interesting post, Maedhros. Thanks.

Thank you.

Although you would make a more powerful point without so much sarcasm, witty or not.

If only you knew.

But how can the Appendix-quote be explained?

Do you mean this phrase:

It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The Dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becoming yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth.

Flying as utilized in this phrase, with other examples that I had taken from LOTR does not imply that the Varaulakula "flew", flying is here a synonym of the word "move", although I would say move with great speed.

Also it seems slightly futile to draw any actual proof on the matter from the hoME, because as I understand everthing there is preliminary, unfinished and/or 'incorrect' to Tolkien himself, at least in Morgoth's Ring.

Some of the Material is unfinished, but to say incorrect is another thing altogether, specially in Morgoth's Ring. Actually the Later Quenta is the last Version of the Quenta Silmarillion that JRRT wrote,(the manuscript LQ 4) , although he made some little alterations in the Shibboleth of Fëanor.

 

[Beorn]

Maed...to nearly all of your quotes, I can say, "And I suppose since it never mentions the fellowship having hands, we can assume they don't have any"

Consider this:

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

Now, keep that in mind and read this:

His hair was like a bird's nest, it was so tangled.

So, the first quote refers to the shadows being like wings, not the wings being like shadows. The second means than the guy's hair was like a bird's nest, not a bird's nest was like hair.

That *moves fingers to say 'quote'* "evidence" being anulled, we continue:

...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall...

So, without the previous *moves fingers to say 'quote'* "evidence" to support no wings, we are only left with concrete, undisputable evidence saying it did something with its wings.

...It was a horse, it was a mule, it was a Horse, it was a Mule, it was a HORSE!, it was MULE!...

 

[Maedhros]

"And I suppose since it never mentions the fellowship having hands, we can assume they don't have any"

"It said so, yes; but it's tricksy. It doesn't say what it means. It won't say what it's got in its pocketses. It knows. It knows a way in, it must know a way out, yes.
I would say that if I can prove that the members of the Fellowship had hands, then:
From LOTR: A Long Expected Party

Frodo saw him to the door. He gave a final wave of his hand, and walked off at a surprising pace; but Frodo thought the old wizard looked unusually bent, almost as if he was carrying a great weight. The evening was closing in, and his cloaked figure quickly vanished into the twilight. Frodo did not see him again for a long time.

Frodo had a hand. Pinch me I must be dreaming. Who would have thought that. Damn, it means that they did have hands.

Gandalf laughed grimly. 'You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind. But as for breaking the Ring, force is useless. Even if you took it and struck it with a heavy sledge-hammer, it would make no dint in it. It cannot be unmade by your hands, or by mine.

Can't believe it, Gandalf has hands too. Wow.

"evidence" to support no wings, we are only left with concrete, undisputable evidence saying it did something with its wings.

Yes, we have "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings". No real wings at all.
Unfortunately, there is no specific mention in LOTR that it states that Balrogs had actual wings.

 

[Beorn]

*groans*

Unfortunately, there is no specific mention in LOTR that it states that Balrogs had actual wings.

It doesn't actually say, "Gandalf had Hands." and somewhere "Frodo had hands." However, it does say they used their hands, implying they had did have hands.

...its wings were spread from wall to wall...

The above quote says that the wings had been spread from wall to wall, implying it had did have wings.

 

[Maedhros]

The above quote says that the wings had been spread from wall to wall, implying it had did have wings.

Nope.

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

It was the shadow that reached like two vast wings, not that he had wings per se.

 

[Lantarion]

Argh..

Yes yes, you are correct: but there is the other quote which contradicts this hypothesis ("His wings reaches from wall to wall"..), owing to which we are having this debate at all!
So how do you explain this other quote, ie. "His wings..." ?

And as for the Appendix-quote, the term "flying" used would seem to lean towards the definition of "fleeing", as Gandalf means when he tell sthe Fellowship to 'fly'. Why would Balrogs flee from Thangorodrim?

Last posted by Maedhros
the Varaulakula

LOL!

 

[Maedhros]

So how do you explain this other quote, ie. "His wings..." ?

Can you put the complete quote so that I can answer you?

Why would Balrogs flee from Thangorodrim?

To avoid being destroyed in the War of Wrath.
From the Fall of Gondolin:

The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed -- 'at most seven'.

There were not many to begin with.

 

[Cian]

Same Appendix Section III (not long after the Balrog "flying" from Thangorodrim quote): Azog saw that all his host in the valley was in a rout, and those that could escape from the Dwarves: "... were flying south, shrieking as they ran."

So generally flying can easily mean 'fleeing' which I think well fits the Balrog quote too. A Tolkien description of a Balrog: "... their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named ..." ~JRRT

No wings there, "vast" or otherwise, but darkness/shadow certainly ~ and Tolkien has no problem describing a reaching shadow as wings: "Over the land there lies a long shadow, westward reaching wings of darkness." ~JRRT, ROTK

I say Unlight

 

[Lantarion]

Last posted by Maedhros
Can you put the complete quote so that I can answer you?

I did in my last post, a few lines before: "His wings reached from wall to wall."
Well?

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Lantarion
I did in my last post, a few lines before: "His wings reached from wall to wall."
Well?

Well that's not the exact quote but one point is it's out of context; and in any event, there is nothing to say that a shadow cannot be called 'wings' while still being a shadow (especially if it does something winglike).

Here's more wings: "... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings." (~JRRT) Earlier the 'sails' of these ships had been described as "like wings".

Eagles with bird 'wings'?

"And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud." ~JRRT

In context they are clouds though.

 

[Maedhros]

Well?

I have to admit that both of you, Lantarion and Beorn are consistent, but can you give any evidence that they had wings.
Preferably complete quotes and not parts of it.

 

[Beorn]

Saying an action was taken with something means that something must exist, so if it refers to that thing, that thing must exist:

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: gray and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm

So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist.
The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

Is that quote complete enough for you Maed, or would you like me to put the whole book in there?

 

[Maedhros]

So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist.
The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

Unfortunately, the second reference to the wings, actually "refers" to the first part, which "refers" to the shadow.

Is that quote complete enough for you Maed, or would you like me to put the whole book in there?

The whole chapter would suffice.

 

[Cian]

Originally posted by Beorn
So, the first styled part refers to the shadow, therefore proving only that the shadow exists, not that the wings do not exist. The second styled part refers to the wings, proving they do exist.

The second sentence does not "prove" a Balrog had wings (beyond temporary shadow-wings). Apply what you say here to the following:

"... for the sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs," JRRT

"Like wings", then:

"... and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings."

and:
The foul wings of the sea-men have not ..."

Would you also argue that the second two references do not both refer to the sails?