📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[ReadWryt]

You all may b missunderstanding me, I don't know. It just seems to be that the last thing an author would want to do is cause confusion. *Shrug* N`ere mind...I'll leave this one to the Lord of Balrogs and High Captain of Angband.

 

[Lantarion]

I always picture the Balrog w/ wings. Why couldn't he both have wings AND strech out a shadowy muck? And the reason why he didn't fly out of the abyss in Moria is (in my opinion) because Gandalf, a very powerful Maia and wizard, was kicking his ass (pardon my French), and the poor, ickle Balroggy-woggy was probably in the throws of fairly sizeable clutches of pain, and couldn't function properly. When he cooled off (ie, almost drowned in the freezing water under the Bridge), he most likely ran off into the fabled tunnels under Khazad-Dum, and eventually scampered into the Tower, where he fell.

 

[Thorondor]

Pontifex-

Now that is a reason that actually seems to make sense to me, and I could actually believe that more than others saying, the book said the word wings, so they had to be wings. I don't think that the balrog was that terribly destroyed though, until reaching the water.
JMO

 

[Gothmog]

Thorondor, The reasons, physical wings, wings of shadow or both, All make sense. Any of them could be true, it is just a matter of how each person pictures the Balrog. I was not arguing that my view has to be the one that every body accepts, only that I picture the Balrog without wings and my defence of that picture. Others will have a different picture.

ReadWryt, the confusion does not come from the author. We are the ones disusing the finer points of a book writen by some one that we have not talked to. I accept your view of the Balrog's wings and the writings of Tolkin. But I will still defend My views on them.

 

[Uminya]

Whether they were made of fire, flesh, or shadow...wings are wings.

 

[Thorondor]

ciryaher, yes on that point I do agree then they did have wings, but obviously everyone here is discussing whether they are liturally wings or not

 

[Dagorlad]

I too have wondered if real wings were meant, or if the Balrog used his own power over fear, fire, and darkness to create them. I see no significant difference, like Ciryahir said, and I don't believe Tolkien intended us to believe the creature could fly anyway. Real or percieved wings, I have no real opinion. There are a number of very obvious reasons why it may not have been able to fly out of the chasm(assuming it had actual capacity for flight), not the least of which is that it had Gandalf heading down as well, and Gandalf would have been clinging (especially if the Balrog might fly)and perhaps hewing with his sword as well. Flying up would have brought Gandalf up. But I don't believe we are intended to think there was a chance of that happening anyway.
I have seen a thread for discussion of the paths of the dead in some forum here. An arguement in there was quite the same. Tolkien said exactly what he meant, and was very good at doing it with few words.
Also, Gothmog you told ReadWryt in your last post that the confusion doesn't come from the author. I think that's exactly what ReadWryt was trying to say in his previous posts.

Picture the demon from the movie "Legend", with a slightly less human face simply because it looks more evil, add glowing white or red eyes, make it black as charcoal, bigger, with some long, straight unkempt looking black hair, black wings like a bat, and rippled with muscle. My Balrog.

 

[Gothmog]

Dagorlad, ReadWryt was answering a point that I made that Tolkien could describe exactly what he wished us to see when he wanted, but that did not mean that every thing he described had to be done with the same attention to detail. Some things he could have left to the readers interpretation. ReadWryt disagreed me.

Very nice picture of your Balrog. Amputate the wings and you have pretty much a picture of my Balrog.

Cian, thank you for the quotes, Shows that any interpretation could be the right one.

 

[Lantarion]

Now that you mention it, I can't really picture a Balrog flying, without him looking pretty silly.

WARNING: side-tracking content approaching!

as a side note: The first time I read the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, I thought Legolas was speaking in his own language when he cried,
"A Balrog!". It may have been, since the word 'Balrog' is Sindarin, as is the exclamation 'A' (or is that 'ai'?). It's kind of strange...

 

[Talierin]

I think they had wings, but they were about as useful as an ostrich's......
A big, flame-demon flying.... nope, can't see it......

 

[Telchar]

I lean towards the idea that they had something that looked like wings but were not wings in the sense that birds have wings. They could envelop themselves in shadow, similar to Ungoliant, and this shadow could look like wings. I do think they could fly but they had enough power to do so without needing wings.

Balrogs were Maiar. I think that they may have been able to change their appearance in the beginning, but as they expended their power they lost this ability. So if one had wings, others may not.

 

[Thorin]

Sil mentions the episodes in one of the battles against Morgoth that he released the powers of Angband and there were many Balrogs let loose? And also when Ungoliante snared Morgoth, he cried out and a bunch of Balrogs came to his aid?

To me, these episodes imply swiftness and efficiency. How would it look if Morgoth yells, "Help!!!" And here comes a few Balrogs huffing and puffing it on foot a few miles away from over the mountains, "Yes, master..(pant,pant)..we're coming! Just hold on for a bit (huff, puff) and we'll save you from the vicious arachnid!"

I think to have come so swiftly at Morgoth's cry s well to have been released on the elves with the force and fear they had means that they probably would have had to have wings.

Ya think?...

 

[Gothmog]

Telchar, Very good points.

Thorin, The argument about wings aside, there is no evidence to show that Balrogs flew In the Dagor Bragollach, Tolkien wrote that rivers of flame ran down swifter than balrogs. Which to me gives the idea that Balrogs moved on the ground rather than in the air.
Balrogs are Maiar and could probably move with great speed on land. One other point, if Balrogs could fly why did Earendil and all the great birds not become involved in the war of wrath until the attack of Ancalagon and the winged dragons?

 

[El-ahrairah]

Can anyone handle a thread on Balrogs + Wings?

Ok, I don't want to stir up any emotions here; however, in my searching for more info on the upcoming (hopefully great) trilogy of movies, I have run into an enormous amount of discussion on Balrogs and if they have wings or no. Let me set the record straight.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert on LotR, but let me quote this:

From FotR The Bridge of Khazad-Dum:

"The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and it's wings were spread from wall to wall; but Gandolf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm."

How can anyone think Balrogs DON'T have wings? At least this one. And if even ONE has wings, you cannot claim "Balrogs don't have wings".

Can they fly? That is another question altogether.

 

[Beorn]

How can someone say that? Easily. Read Two paragraphs before that...

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip and the thongs whined and cracled. Fire cam from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

It says like. Tolkien was very precise with his words...
Source:http://www.tolkien.cro.net/balrogs/fly.html

 

[El-ahrairah]

Ok, perhaps I read it wrong. I saw the earlier paragraph I also perhaps gave Tolken too much credit with his precision.

I simply read it as "its shadow spread like wings" but later saying "its wings spread from wall to wall" not "it's shadow like wings spread from wall to wall"

A matter of interpretation, like I said I'm not trying to cause heartache to those who believe; however, I find it hard to believe he would be specific in one paragraph then not in another. If it were a shadow, he wouldn't have said "it's wings spread from wall to wall"

Hehe, I wonder which path the movie will take. Question: will anyone give the movie a bad rating just because this scene isn't as one hopes?

 

[Telchar]

I know that there is another thread like this somewhere on the board.. But I can't find it..

Balrogs where maiar, and maiar could take the shape they wanted, so wouldn't you think that the balrogs looked differently? Or do you belive that all the maiar who followed Melcor took the exact same shape? Since they had the will to decide their shape in the beginning some, probably, chose wings, others may not. So if one have wings, it dosn't mean that al had wings..

 

[Iluvatar]

Since it seems to be a given that Tokien was so very precise with his words, then it should also be a given that balrogs (at least this one - very good point by Telchar) *do* have wings. In one paragraph its shadow spread like wings, and in an ensuing paragraph it explicitly states that 'its wings were sread from wall to wall.' Given Tolkien's accepted precision with his words, this obviously indicates that the balrog had wings, *and* that the balrog's shadow spread out like wings. And, of course, a shadow appearing to spread like wings becomes less surprising once you realise that the item casting the shadow *has* wings.

Also, why can't balrogs fly? I've always envisioned them as doing so, and even once wrote an aborted short story along those lines. I don't understand the emotional abhorrence of the idea of balrogs flying.

 

[Lantarion]

I think that, as a Maia, a Balrog can take perhaps not any shape, but shapes like fire, shadow and the like are obvious possibilities.
I think that Balrogs perhaps use wings to frighten their opponent, like a peacock. I think that they can fly, but they don't need wings, being demi-gods and all (but it's cool to think of them flying w/ wings), and they possibly don't need to fly at all, because the foolish carrot who stands up to a Balrog (no offence, Gandalf ) is dead before you can say 'Balrogs don't have wings'.
Oh, and welcome El-ahrairah, have a great time at this insane place.

 

[Beorn]

Yeah, welcome. The book says "shadow about it reached out like two vast wings," so if it later says wings, the wings would be referred to as shadows...