📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Plenty of arguments in this thread on those points -- from both sides, if you want to read through them.

47 pages worth, in fact. Have fun! 😁

 

[Eldacar]

Some how I don't think Tolkien was thinking of flightless birds when he designed Balrogs, I think the wings were a figure of speech, much like sometimes calling elves, men.

Tolkien didn't, but after reading the past posts, I can't help it but imagine Balrogs as some fiery and very angry oversized Penguins.

 

[Elthir]

Also, during Morgoth's assault on Gondolin in The Fall of Gondolin Balrogs attacked the city, but they attacked from the ground instead of flying up into Gondolin and destroying it from the inside like the metal lizards.

Welcome Idril!

While I'm still partially awake, I'm thinking-guessing-assuming that it's not controversial among Tolkien fans to say that the Balrogs of The Book of Lost Tales (The Fall of Gondolin), or "early Balrogs" so to speak, could not fly. In any case, this is a very early work, where the Balrogs are not evil Maiar, for example, and here I'll provide a couple of early descriptions to consider as well.

The eagles dwell out of reach of Orc and Balrog, and are great foes of Morgoth and his people.

That's from Tolkien's 1920-something Sketch of the Mythology, though if my now-one-year-older memory still works, I think I've seen at least one person argue that maybe these early Balrogs could fly, just not high enough!

hmm.

But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; for until that day no creatures of his cruel thought had yet assailed the air.

From JRRT's 1937 Quenta Silmarillion

And even when, years later, Tolkien first introduced the Balrog in Moria, it was clearly seen (no shadow about it yet, it seems) -- it's in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings that Tolkien decides the creature is better shrouded in darkness . . . and of course the "wing" references appear. . . and then the wonderful, published description we all love to chat about!



Unfortunately, Tolkien's updated Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s) didn't get very far, and so far, there are no Silmarillion references that solve the matter for everyone (including a reference in which Balrogs are said to have moved with "winged speed" at one point). That all said, I don't think Tolkien wanted flying Balrogs in his tales of the Elder Days -- even the flying dragons don't get to appear until the Wrathy War, after Gondolin has fallen.

But that said, Tolkien once mused that there might be but three Balrogs (or at most seven, JRRT added, admittedly), but then again even three "Power Demons" shrouded in darkness and flying into the fray of Gondolin (or in any other earlier battles) would be a fairly notable change -- in my opinion.

In the end I must conclude. . . oh too late. . . I see a patch of sunlight on a pillow, and I must investigate its potential with respect to dreamy laziness.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

Hello Elthir, thanks for letting me know that the early balrogs (such as from The Fall of Gondolin) were still in development. That explains how they could be killed by maces, which confused me for a while. I'm a Tolkien fan, but have only been one for one year and am still figuring some things out. Also, I didn't realise there were 48 pages and this was already discussed, I should have looked more closely .

 

[Elthir]

Hello Idril. No problem about the thread revival -- personally, I think a Balrog Wing discussion deserves 50 pages at least, but that's just me.

 

[Þráinn Þórhallsson]

You would think that if Balrogs had functioning wings the Balrog that Gandalf pushed of the bridge of Khazad-Dum would have been able to fly back up... Also, during Morgoth's assault on Gondolin in The Fall of Gondolin Balrogs attacked the city, but they attacked from the ground instead of flying up into Gondolin and destroying it from the inside like the metal lizards. Also, just before the fall of Glorfindle a Balrog attacks the refugees from Gondolin, but once again from the ground, not the air. However, the FOTR seems to describe the balrogs as having shadowy wings. Therefore I would hazard a guess that they do have some kind if wings (perhaps not physical ones), but probably cannot use them to fly.

Also the Balrog that Glorfindel killed fell to his down much like the one Gandalf fought.

 

[grendel]

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things,
Of shoes, of ships and sealing wax,
Of cabbages and kings.
And why the sea is boiling hot, and whether Balrogs have wings."

[Even Lewis Carroll got into the discussion!]

 

[Radaghast]

257 deluded souls...

 

[Oxford Old One]

For what it's worth: in my view the initial quote, that the Balrog stepped onto the bridge 'and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' is the critical one. It's the first reference to wings in the chapter and suggests that the wings are a metaphor. Tolkien uses the idea of the Balrog's shadow as a physical thing which spreads as a threat and then plunges off the bridge with it.

If you want to be really pedantic, and the wings are taken literally, then the quote that they spread from wall to wall in context of the great hall suggests that the balrog would be the size of a dragon, which would make fitting through the tunnels in Moria somewhat tricky.

 

[TrackerOrc]

For what it's worth: in my view the initial quote, that the Balrog stepped onto the bridge 'and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' is the critical one. It's the first reference to wings in the chapter and suggests that the wings are a metaphor. Tolkien uses the idea of the Balrog's shadow as a physical thing which spreads as a threat and then plunges off the bridge with it.

If you want to be really pedantic, and the wings are taken literally, then the quote that they spread from wall to wall in context of the great hall suggests that the balrog would be the size of a dragon, which would make fitting through the tunnels in Moria somewhat tricky.

I've tried to vote in the poll but can't, but obviously it would be a resounding Yes.

'It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

Open and shut case I reckon...

 

[Radaghast]

I've tried to vote in the poll but can't, but obviously it would be a resounding Yes.

'It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

Open and shut case I reckon...

Not quite. You're forgetting the earlier mention of its "wings":

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

• The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

The first instance is simile, the second, metaphor. If you want to argue for wings, you also have to explain what the wings are good for. Clearly not for flying. You can say they are wings of shadow, I suppose, but they are not actual physical wings attached to the corporeal form.

 

[Elthir]

'It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall'.

Open and shut case I reckon...

I agree! At this moment the Balrog had wings in the sense that its shadow spread out/looked like wings.

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness.

Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, TPOTGC, The Lord of the Rings

 

[TrackerOrc]

Not quite. You're forgetting the earlier mention of its "wings":

• The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

The first instance is simile, the second, metaphor. If you want to argue for wings, you also have to explain what the wings are good for. Clearly not for flying. You can say they are wings of shadow, I suppose, but they are not actual physical wings attached to the corporeal form.

'It drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall'

There's no simile or metaphor here, it's a clear, exact sentence which says the Balrog spread its wings. What else can this sentence possibly mean?

The earlier reference paves the way - what else can cast a wing-like shadow, other than wings?

And there's no need to argue for wings - it's exactly what Tolkien wrote.

 

[Radaghast]

'It drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall'

There's no simile or metaphor here, it's a clear, exact sentence which says the Balrog spread its wings. What else can this sentence possibly mean?

As I said, it's a metaphor for the shadow the Balrog extends from itself.

The earlier reference paves the way - what else can cast a wing-like shadow, other than wings?

Well, he didn't write "wing-like shadow." Also, one of the things that can cast "wing-like shadow", other than a supernatural power of shadow, is a cape or other large bit of cloth. Also, shadow puppetry, anyone? And you haven't addressed the fact that the Balrog obviously can't fly.

 

[TrackerOrc]

As I said, it's a metaphor for the shadow the Balrog extends from itself.


Well, he didn't write "wing-like shadow." Also, one of the things that can cast "wing-like shadow", other than a supernatural power of shadow, is a cape or other large bit of cloth. Also, shadow puppetry, anyone? And you haven't addressed the fact that the Balrog obviously can't fly.

There is simply no metaphor in the sentence, I don't understand why you would say there is. It's a basic sentence which means exactly what is written.

It's not his wings which are casting a shadow 'like two vast wings', but a cape or a piece of cloth? Not sure how a 'dark figure streaming with fire' could be equipped with a piece of cloth to be honest.

I don't know whether the Balrog can fly or not, and I really don't care; I do know that he has wings, as Tolkien wrote a perfectly simple sentence saying exactly that.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

But earlier Tolkien wrote like two vast wings, not two vast wings. The wings don't neccisarily have to be physical. If it can't fly, then what on Arda does it have wings for? Also, I recall that in a Silmarillion battle the Balrogs rode dragons. What would they need to ride dragons for if they could fly?

 

[Radaghast]

There is simply no metaphor in the sentence, I don't understand why you would say there is. It's a basic sentence which means exactly what is written.

Because it is a metaphor. Sorry you don't see it that way.

It's not his wings which are casting a shadow 'like two vast wings', but a cape or a piece of cloth? Not sure how a 'dark figure streaming with fire' could be equipped with a piece of cloth to be honest.

No, I'm not saying the Balrog wore a cape. I'm just saying lots of things can create the illusion of wings. Your argument that only wings can look like wings isn't convincing to me.

I don't know whether the Balrog can fly or not, and I really don't care; I do know that he has wings, as Tolkien wrote a perfectly simple sentence saying exactly that.

No, it doesn't (and no, they still don't). And so what are the wings for if not for flying, if you believe them to be physical extensions of his body? Let's look at the text again (emphasis mine):

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

What about this says the Balrog actually has wings? I mean, if Tolkien wanted to say the thing had wings he would have said so; he wouldn't have used what is obviously a simile. Also, no other description of Balrogs in any other text mentions even a whisper of a hint of wings, and there's no mention by Gandalf of gigantic wings flapping and flopping about when he describes his fight with the Balrog. There is also no description of wings in the creature's introduction. Yet the "pro-wings" lot latch onto "its wings" like a pitbull on a piece of raw meat. But this argument simply doesn't fly; there just isn't any evidence to keep it aloft (puns very much intended). You're absolutely right, the text is plain, but somehow you (and others) are reading it incorrectly. The biggest reason for arguing for wings seems to be that "it looks cool".

Moving on, after the Balrog cracks its fiery whip, Gandalf tells it that his "dark fire will not avail" him, to which:

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall

You don't see a metaphor here? You think the Balrog is lugging around these huge appendages large enough to fill the entire cavern around the Bridge of Khazad-dûm? Sorry, that's plain bonkers. The darkness grew. The Balrog has power to spread darkness in a way that is reminiscent of wings, but they are not actual wings.

Anyway, to avoid the risk of repeating my self ad tedium, (and since I'm taking this argument more seriously than I should) this is going to be my last word on this. Believe what you will. Thank you.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Here's the passage in its entirety, at least from when the Balrog reaches the bridge.

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the
middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but
in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His
enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it
reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the
thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But
Gandalf stood firm.
‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead
silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the
flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail
you, flame of Uduˆn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot
pass.’
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die,
but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the
bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and
its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf
could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small,
and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before
the onset of a storm.

Personally, I always thought that the balrog possibly did have wings but that's just my personal opinion. I think that the way Tolkien wrote it, it can be interpreted either way. The first instance it's more a metaphor as Radaghast suggested but the second time, it sounds more literal.

But in the Silmarillion, there's this piece:

In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined.

That sounds like they're on the ground with the orcs, all following behind Glaurung. So there, they are't flying (if they have wings).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

So now we're going to say even dragons don't have wings?! 😳

 

[Radaghast]

So now we're going to say even dragons don't have wings?! 😳

Glaurung doesn't.